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Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

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Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#111

Post by zamadatix »

sethammons wrote: post #77
Tor3 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd heard the folklore that snow tires are more important than all wheel drive for handling on both snow and ice All wheel drive helps zero with winter conditions, except for going uphill or some other acceleration-equivalent action. Quite the opposite really - many people have experienced how with 4x4 you don't get a warning before you just lose your grip and off the road you go. For the record I'm driving a 4x4,…

> All wheel drive helps zero with winter conditions, except for going uphill or some other acceleration-equivalent action What are you on about? Living in Montana, AWD is dramatically better than 4WD. And winter tires are great. We never used them on one of our AWDs because the AWD is so dang good. Snow tires were absolutely required on our 4WD and 2WD cars. AWD or snow tires, I am mindful of stopping distance. I wil…

Summer Is my opinion from living in Michigan i.e. AWD is always a step up but rarely better than having the right tires. It depends a bit on the conditions too - are you looking out the window and wondering if your car will get stuck/make it up an incline or are you looking out the window wondering if your car is going to slide into a into a ditch/the car in front of you or is it an equal mix? AWD adds the most value when there was a heavy snow, unplowed roads, and relatively low traffic since. In any other case it’s really not all that helpful, except maybe a slippery uphill intersection but even then good tires help there and the inverse situation whereas AWD only helps in the one direction.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#112

Post by sandworm101 »

krupan wrote: post #110
sandworm101 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Winter driving cover a broad range of conditions, from "I see snowflakes" to "are we still on a road?" Alleged "snow tires" that are good enough in the former can be next to useless in the later. I helped an AWD SUV/crossover thing ten feet off the road a couple weeks ago. It was in very deep fluffy/dry snow, half on its side, sitting its weight on the snow rather than the tires. Only one wheel actually turned (front…

If the weight of the vehicle is not on the wheels then locking diffs or snow tires won't help. If you are high centered you are high centered and you have to solve that problem first.

Typically, when you go off the road with some speed you will be high on the front but less so on the back. In this case we couldn't really tell as the rear wheels were not turning (AWD likely defaults to FWD for most driving conditions). In these cases I don't like digging around too much for fear that the car will settle/shift onto someone. We grabbed at the front bumper tow point, rotating the car 45* counterclockwise. At some point during this the rear axel decided to start helping and it half drove itself back onto the road.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#113

Post by supermatt »

sandworm101 wrote: post #109
alkonaut wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of it more as an outdated distinction. First of all with motors on each wheel and no communication between front/rear in many cases, the distinction becomes blurry. Further many manufacturers have names like “AWD” (volvo and others) or “4matic” (MB) or “4motion” (VW) to label their take on more-than-2wd, whether or not their variant is awd or 4WD (or both) in the traditional sense. Some "AWD" models will be e…

>> First of all with motors on each wheel and no communication between front/rear in many cases, the distinction becomes blurry. Which cars have motors on each wheel? That is maybe 0.01% of vehicles on the road. (Electric busses?) And even then, AWD/FWD distinctions can matter in how those motors interact. Electric or IC, so long as power is delivered through four wheels there will be different styles and techniques…

Nothing yet, but the next porsche electric drivetrain supposedly will:

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2019/technology/porsche-engi...

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#114

Post by evancox100 »

sethammons wrote: post #77
Tor3 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd heard the folklore that snow tires are more important than all wheel drive for handling on both snow and ice All wheel drive helps zero with winter conditions, except for going uphill or some other acceleration-equivalent action. Quite the opposite really - many people have experienced how with 4x4 you don't get a warning before you just lose your grip and off the road you go. For the record I'm driving a 4x4,…

> All wheel drive helps zero with winter conditions, except for going uphill or some other acceleration-equivalent action What are you on about? Living in Montana, AWD is dramatically better than 4WD. And winter tires are great. We never used them on one of our AWDs because the AWD is so dang good. Snow tires were absolutely required on our 4WD and 2WD cars. AWD or snow tires, I am mindful of stopping distance. I wil…

AWD or 4WD does nothing for you if you’re braking and trying to stop.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#115

Post by [deleted] »

Tor3 wrote: post #64
supermatt wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. If you are driving with summer tyres on ice, then of course you are going to be skittering all over the place. When going downhill on ice, again your tyres are going to make ALL the difference. You shouldnt be trying to stop going downhill on ice anyway. You should be descending at a constant and controlled speed.

It doesn't mean any difference when you're trying to slow down downhill. As you're saying, "your tyres are going to make ALL the difference." Which is exactly what I said - 4x4 or AWD doesn't help anything with that.

[deleted]

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#116

Post by quickthrowman »

Tor3 wrote: post #64
supermatt wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWD != 4x4. AWD + traction control absolutely helps driving on snow and ice with appropriate tyres. If you are driving with summer tyres on ice, then of course you are going to be skittering all over the place. When going downhill on ice, again your tyres are going to make ALL the difference. You shouldnt be trying to stop going downhill on ice anyway. You should be descending at a constant and controlled speed.

It doesn't mean any difference when you're trying to slow down downhill. As you're saying, "your tyres are going to make ALL the difference." Which is exactly what I said - 4x4 or AWD doesn't help anything with that.

Why would you try to slow down (with your brakes) while going downhill on a snowy road? That is the worst possible thing you could do. Go slower at the top of the hill or let off the gas to reduce your speed.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#117

Post by brookst »

evancox100 wrote: post #114
sethammons wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All wheel drive helps zero with winter conditions, except for going uphill or some other acceleration-equivalent action What are you on about? Living in Montana, AWD is dramatically better than 4WD. And winter tires are great. We never used them on one of our AWDs because the AWD is so dang good. Snow tires were absolutely required on our 4WD and 2WD cars. AWD or snow tires, I am mindful of stopping distance. I wil…

AWD or 4WD does nothing for you if you’re braking and trying to stop.

And snow tires do nothing if your two drive wheels are in an icy rut. Different solutions to different problems.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#118

Post by brookst »

supermatt wrote: post #73
alkonaut wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of it more as an outdated distinction. First of all with motors on each wheel and no communication between front/rear in many cases, the distinction becomes blurry. Further many manufacturers have names like “AWD” (volvo and others) or “4matic” (MB) or “4motion” (VW) to label their take on more-than-2wd, whether or not their variant is awd or 4WD (or both) in the traditional sense. Some "AWD" models will be e…

Its not outdated. There may be multiple variations on AWD (as i mentioned, some can vary power to individual wheels, rather than just the axles), but 4WD (or 4x4) is categorically not AWD.

I think there is more nuance here. A 4x4 with a locked center diff and open front and rear diffs acts just like many AWD implementations.

That same 4x4 with limited slip diffs on front and/or rear is just like other AWD implementations.

And that same 4x4 with locked front and/or rear diffs is just like yet other AWD implementations.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#119

Post by supermatt »

brookst wrote: post #118
supermatt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not outdated. There may be multiple variations on AWD (as i mentioned, some can vary power to individual wheels, rather than just the axles), but 4WD (or 4x4) is categorically not AWD.

I think there is more nuance here. A 4x4 with a locked center diff and open front and rear diffs acts just like many AWD implementations. That same 4x4 with limited slip diffs on front and/or rear is just like other AWD implementations. And that same 4x4 with locked front and/or rear diffs is just like yet other AWD implementations.

> A 4x4 with a locked center diff and open front and rear diffs acts just like many AWD implementations.

Thats simply not true. It wouldnt be AWD if it cant adjust the power supplied to each axle. Thats the primary distinction.

Re: Automatic snow tires throw chains at your wheels [video]

#120

Post by presto8 »

analog31 wrote: post #25

Granted a passenger car is not a heavy truck or bus, but living in the upper Midwest, I've learned that snow tires make a huge difference for winter driving. I'd heard the folklore that snow tires are more important than all wheel drive for handling on both snow and ice, and having used them for a few years now, I'm a believer. So called "all season" tires are not snow tires. You can get a complete set of snow tires,…

My ordering based on personal experience would be:

AWD + Winter > AWD + All-Season > FWD + Winter > FWD + All-Season

There are plenty of videos[1] showing the above. I guess it should come as no surprise that it comes down to the vehicle, the tires, the conditions, and the driver.

At least for me driving in the PNW (temps usually not too much below freezing), Kumho Crugens (all-season) on my AWD SUV are way superior to Michelin X-Ice (winter) on my FWD minivan. Braking is longer on snow and ice with all-seasons, so I leave 8 car lengths of distance minimum when following other cars. The SUV has superior ESC and traction control that way out perform the minivan.

Several times in my FWD minivan with winter tires, I have been unable to go uphill on icy roads and had to put on chains. Whereas the AWD has no issues at all.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRYHlb61_9Q

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