Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

argusleader.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 405 posts

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#111

Post by brookst »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #76
nottorp wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's the winter in that area normally ? Because i've lived my first ~16 years of life in a home heated with firewood (and coal but it's irellevant now) and by the end of september all the fuel needed for 3 months of winter was neatly piled up within easy reach of the house. All you needed was to shovel like 20 meters of path and maybe a wheelbarrow. Why would you need something motorized to get to your firewood? Doe…

I don't know the details, but they are very very poor (Pine Ridge is often calculated to have the highest unemployment and lowest per capita income in the entire country; life expectancy is ~50 years), and I'm not sure how forrested the land is, it's mostly grassland/prairie. The OP article suggested that many people ordinarily use propane heat, which normally can be delivered just fine. I don't know enough to say wh…

Thank you for the context. It’s a little cringey to read all of the comparatively wealthy and privileged comments that boil down to “why didn’t they just spend lots of money on equipment and supplies.”

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#113

Post by barney54 »

LinuxBender wrote: post #87
c-fe wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say most people, even in rural areas, don't have a supply that'll last longer than that, except for some hardcore preppers. I disagree. Or, at least where I live (densely populated europe), nearly everyone with their own house has at lease one (small) fireplace with some wood stored outside, typically enough for at least a month (otherwhise, do you go shopping wood every week?). Food-wise I agree that 8 days ma…

That is my take as well. Everyone around me keeps at least 1 cord of wood [1] or more. It can get cold here and people are expected to be self sufficient. The less fortunate people instead of buying wood will get a permit from the state to chop wood from a specified area but then they have to haul/cut/dry/season the wood themselves usually borrowing a neighbors trailer. People here are friendly and share tools. [1] -…

People who live on Indian Reservations are frequently really, really poor and likely couldn’t afford to stock up with that much wood beforehand.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#114

Post by ethanbond »

xyzelement wrote: post #110
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes, why aren't these people self sufficient after we took away all their means of self sufficiency? This sounds very much like "racism of low expectations". "These people" are just as self-sufficient as any other group of modern people of similar socioeconomic background. It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion. I come from eastern Europe and 150 years ago most of my ancestors were se…

This is exactly it. Many peoples suffered extremely bad histories (Jews, Armenians, Chinese under Communism etc) and rise to overcome it in modern day. History is not fair but your actions yesterday determine your life today and your actions today determine your future. It is extremely damaging to sustain this culture of of course your life is shit because of what happened hundreds of years ago, nothing you can do

"100 years ago" is a weird way to describe "ongoing harm as recently as... earlier this year."

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/18/1081872135/native-americans-p...

Or the US government's uranium mining on Navajo land continuing to poison people today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_and_the_Navajo_...

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#116

Post by dboreham »

epistasis wrote: post #41
gadders wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net zero will make this more common, sadly, either through energy insecurity or people being unable to afford to heat their homes.

Energy will be far cheaper when we switch to a fossil fuel free grid, because the newer technologies are cheaper, and unlike fossil fuels they are on a decreasing cost tech curve. So the sooner we build out the tech, the sooner prices fall.

Is this true? It contradicts everything I know about energy. Can you post some evidence?

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#117

Post by Scoundreller »

ilyt wrote: post #50
xyzelement wrote: post #22

This triggered two thoughts for me. First, how much of a killer the cold is. We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language but there are a lot of places in the world that would be grateful for a few degree temperature rise (such as Latvia where I am from). Today, cold kills hundreds of thousands of people a year, while "heat deaths" are limited to geriatrics in the "first world." Second, preparedn…

I'm perplexed how folks using gas or wood apparently have less than a week or two worth of heating stored. Back when I lived in small village we always had at least month+ (not too uncommon to buy the supply for whole winter too) worth of coal/wood there.

Wood is usually cheaper if you buy it green and season it yourself, but it’s a situation where it’s expensive to be poor so maybe they buy it dried or as needed through winter.

You can burn green wood, it’ll just be harder to start/less efficient. If you have no choice…

Wood pellets are usually cheaper in summer (and often not much more expensive than firewood once you account for the higher efficiences of pellet stoves).

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#118

Post by aqme28 »

Klathmon wrote: post #90
nottorp wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's the winter in that area normally ? Because i've lived my first ~16 years of life in a home heated with firewood (and coal but it's irellevant now) and by the end of september all the fuel needed for 3 months of winter was neatly piled up within easy reach of the house. All you needed was to shovel like 20 meters of path and maybe a wheelbarrow. Why would you need something motorized to get to your firewood? Doe…

>All you needed was to shovel like 20 meters of path and maybe a wheelbarrow. According to the article some of the areas are getting 30 inches of snow and ice! With drifts easily doubling that, I could see how 20 meters could quickly become near impossible to clear by hand, especially while it's still coming down.

Also I'm not sure that every household has someone able-bodied enough to do that work.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#119

Post by LinuxBender »

barney54 wrote: post #113
LinuxBender wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is my take as well. Everyone around me keeps at least 1 cord of wood [1] or more. It can get cold here and people are expected to be self sufficient. The less fortunate people instead of buying wood will get a permit from the state to chop wood from a specified area but then they have to haul/cut/dry/season the wood themselves usually borrowing a neighbors trailer. People here are friendly and share tools. [1] -…

People who live on Indian Reservations are frequently really, really poor and likely couldn’t afford to stock up with that much wood beforehand.

You've given me something to go do. I've never visited the reservation near me. [1] If they are unaware of the wood cutting permits [2] I will show them.

[1] - https://windriver.org/destinations/wind-river-indian-reserva...

[2] - https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbr/passes-permits/forestprod...

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#120

Post by jrochkind1 »

zdragnar wrote: post #20
joemazerino wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A nice cop out. Are you saying those on the reserves are generationally crippled beyond reproach? Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why?

Even though it's not technically wrong, but I also don't see how viewing a people (or worse, viewing yourself) as a perpetual victim is in any way useful. There's no rewriting the past. Saying "I'll never amount to anything because of what happened 50, 100, 200 years ago" denies your agency, and thus a fundamental aspect of your humanity. Some people seem to think that the bigotry of low expectations is "social justi…

Pine Ridge has unemployment of 80-90%, median income of $4000/year, and life expectancy of ~50 years. Many people live without electricity or running water.

I don't know that people who live there say "I'll never amount to anything", I don't think any of us participating in this conversation live there; probably none of us are natives. So we're not talking about what they say about themselves, we're talking about what we say about them.

If not the legacy of expropriation, displacement, and cultural destruction... the usual explanation is that there is just something wrong with these people as people, something diseased, pathological with their culture. I don't see how that is in any way useful, or somehow more respectful of "agency".

Up until the 70s, children (children!) were still being forcibly sent to prison-like (for real, prison-like) boarding schools.

https://archleague.org/article/cheyenne-river-reservation-bo...

I don't think there is anything wrong with Oglala culture -- I think they have the cultural and personal resources they need to thrive if conditions are changed to make up for generations of intentional targetted destruction of their material resources and cultural life and social networks. "Social justice" would be restoration of sovreignty, reparations (a massive "marshall plan" level of physical and human infrastructure investment), an apology and general cultural recognition and education throughout the USA of native history, legal enforcement of treaty rights that have been ignored/thrown out, etc.

While it's a situation with great differences as well as similarities, New Zealand's reparative policies toward the Maori can provide some models. https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/79224-new-zealand-leads-way-r...

Blaming the Oglala Lakota people for the result of generations of targeted destruction of their way of life and ability to survive is not somehow more respectful of their "agency" or dignity.

Like, what are we actually talking about here right now? The lack of capacity of people on the Pine Ridge reservation to handle a weather emergency? How is it more respectful of agency or dignity to say we shouldn't talk about how this is the result of generations of colonialism, that intentionally removed the material and cultural resources people would use to take care of themselves? Is it more respectful of agency or dignity to suggest that they are the poorest community in the USA because of their own cultural failings? I agree that liberals as well as right-wingers can pathologize native culture, suggest that their culture is broken and needs to be "fixed", that the problem is internal -- I think suggesting that there is something wrong with native culture is what is disrespectful of their actual dignity, agency, and continued ability to survive under conditions designed for the opposite. They are very strong people, the evidence is that they are still there, and I hope they think of themselves thusly.

Post reply on HN