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DNS over Wikipedia

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Re: DNS over Wikipedia

#111

Post by Cyberdog »

dale_glass wrote: post #99
Cyberdog wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, God, I'm being dragged into this debate again. > There's no such thing as "just words on the internet". Words express beliefs and intent. I take them seriously. Intent? Find me a post on KF stating intent to harm someone in real life which wasn't either downvoted or promptly deleted. Go ahead. > Of course. The sort of people that compile elaborate profiles on people including personal information are some sort of…

> Intent? Find me a post on KF stating intent to harm someone in real life which wasn't either downvoted or promptly deleted. Go ahead. Are you new to online communities? I've been a core member of several for years. There's always politics, admin only channels, and people contacting each other outside the main system. Sometimes multiple levels, like two admins talking in private, then adding a third, then bringing i…

> There's always politics, admin only channels, and people contacting each other outside the main system.

Okay, so KF is responsible for conversations that happen outside of KF now? What should KF's admins do about that?

> Sure, and if you know the right people on the right Discord, then you can avoid all that and discuss all the plans and share all the juicy news away from prying eyes.

Take that up with Discord, then.

Re: DNS over Wikipedia

#112

Post by haroldp »

dale_glass wrote: post #109
haroldp wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you owned wikipedia, you feel it would be best to remove immoral things from it?

Depends on what you mean. If you mean documenting its existence, then no, because we have to learn from history. So I wouldn't have an issue with an article on antisemitism or the like. But if I found out that something I own actually helps Nazis, then yes, I'd do my best to stop that from happening. If I suddenly ended up owning Stormfront or Kiwifarms, I would absolutely pull the plug and burn it all to the ground…

> But if I found out that something I own actually helps Nazis, then yes, I'd do my best to stop that from happening.

But the internet helps nazis. Telephones help nazis. I would argue that censorship helps nazis. The real nazis were completely censored from Weimar radio and Goebbels touted Der Angriff as "the most censored newspaper" by the German government. What is our standard for "helps"?

Side note: the wikipedia article for stormfront retains the link to the site. Removal was discussed on the Talk page, but retained with rather pointed language.

Re: DNS over Wikipedia

#113

Post by Cyberdog »

howenterprisey wrote: post #89
Cyberdog wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, God, I'm being dragged into this debate again. > There's no such thing as "just words on the internet". Words express beliefs and intent. I take them seriously. Intent? Find me a post on KF stating intent to harm someone in real life which wasn't either downvoted or promptly deleted. Go ahead. > Of course. The sort of people that compile elaborate profiles on people including personal information are some sort of…

They post contact information, links to profiles where the user can be contacted, and so on, right? If so, they're complicit in whatever people do with that information, even if they don't talk about it on the forums.

By that logic, if someone uses a phone book to harass you via telephone, the phone company is liable.

Or, for a more up-to-date example, if someone uses a DNS provider to find a server's IP address and do a DDOS attack against it (as is constantly happening to KF), the DNS provider would be liable.

Re: DNS over Wikipedia

#114

Post by Manuel_D »

linuxhansl wrote: post #97
kikokikokiko wrote: post #39

We live in a distopia where one of the last search engines that returns real results related to anything the western mainstream "hidden forces" do not want you to be able to see is Yandex, a company located under a dictatorship. In 2022, the only way for a regular citizen to approximate what is reality, what is the "truth", is to look for information provided from the opposite side of any argument you're trying to un…

As things stand Wikipedia is pretty good. Non-contentious topics are free to edit by everyone, contentious/political/hotbutton/etc topics have restricted editorship. I do not sense any specific bias. As usual, "freedom of speech" does not imply a right to be listened to. Also, I do not buy this dystopia claim. In 99.99% of all topics we know exactly what is true and what is not. The sky is blue, clouds are condensed…

Bias definitely exists but it's on a page by page, or perhaps topic by topic basis. It can be fun looking at the talk page - and better yet, the archives of the talk pages.

Re: DNS over Wikipedia

#115

Post by rosmax_1337 »

linuxhansl wrote: post #97
kikokikokiko wrote: post #39

We live in a distopia where one of the last search engines that returns real results related to anything the western mainstream "hidden forces" do not want you to be able to see is Yandex, a company located under a dictatorship. In 2022, the only way for a regular citizen to approximate what is reality, what is the "truth", is to look for information provided from the opposite side of any argument you're trying to un…

As things stand Wikipedia is pretty good. Non-contentious topics are free to edit by everyone, contentious/political/hotbutton/etc topics have restricted editorship. I do not sense any specific bias. As usual, "freedom of speech" does not imply a right to be listened to. Also, I do not buy this dystopia claim. In 99.99% of all topics we know exactly what is true and what is not. The sky is blue, clouds are condensed…

I hate to break it to you, but the facts are not easy. To take something which is far enough away that it hopefully doesn't come across as inflammatory to you, consider the 9/11 attacks. And how the opinions about what happened are incredibly split all around the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_about_9/11_consp...

Now, you can ofcourse dismiss all these opinions as "alternate facts". Probably similarly to how devoted christians dismissed theories about a heliocentric solar system as "alternative facts" only aspoused by lunatics.

Re: DNS over Wikipedia

#116

Post by doctor_eval »

psychphysic wrote: post #45
kikokikokiko wrote: post #39

We live in a distopia where one of the last search engines that returns real results related to anything the western mainstream "hidden forces" do not want you to be able to see is Yandex, a company located under a dictatorship. In 2022, the only way for a regular citizen to approximate what is reality, what is the "truth", is to look for information provided from the opposite side of any argument you're trying to un…

What I don't know is, I see mainstream media become increasingly curated and clearly agenda driven. Is this a function of reality or me getting better at spotting it? I felt as though in the 90s CNN legitimately was a good news source. Early 21centuey VICE was legitimately good. Today there is next to nothing given anything other than a heavily biased view. I think the internet has made things worse, there's a new ki…

I’m not sure. Herman and Chomsky wrote Manufacturing Consent - a book describing the manipulation of public sentiment in the service of corporate and political goals - in 1988, and they were talking about wars from the 60s. The term itself comes from the 1920s. And 1984 was published in 1949.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

Re: DNS over Wikipedia

#117

Post by doctor_eval »

brookst wrote: post #46
kikokikokiko wrote: post #39

We live in a distopia where one of the last search engines that returns real results related to anything the western mainstream "hidden forces" do not want you to be able to see is Yandex, a company located under a dictatorship. In 2022, the only way for a regular citizen to approximate what is reality, what is the "truth", is to look for information provided from the opposite side of any argument you're trying to un…

We live in an imperfect society where extremists leverage the very real flaws to insist that everything is absolutely corrupt and that we should embrace the exact opposite of anything that’s imperfect. Vaccines don’t prevent 100% of all infections for everyone? They’re obviously complete frauds that do no good at all. The sad thing is that we have real problems, and this nihilistic insistence that everything is fake…

Right?

Whenever I get into a discussion about vaccines I say something along the line of:

Of all the shitty things our governments do in our names, you’re choosing vaccines to fight against?!

Re: DNS over Wikipedia

#118

Post by rosmax_1337 »

kikokikokiko wrote: post #39

We live in a distopia where one of the last search engines that returns real results related to anything the western mainstream "hidden forces" do not want you to be able to see is Yandex, a company located under a dictatorship. In 2022, the only way for a regular citizen to approximate what is reality, what is the "truth", is to look for information provided from the opposite side of any argument you're trying to un…

I agree with this post. Over the span of the last 20 years, and most certainly the last 7-5 years, the information wars have ramped up to an entirely new level. After 2018, large portions of dissident content mostly stemming from the right was completely banned on youtube, facebook, twitter. And it's being kept up in tiktok, instagram, and more recently even entities like cloudflare have begun participating.

I understand, the truth is not comfortable. It is sometimes incredibly hurtful to know the other sides version of the truth. But even then truth is worth it.

"All I'm offering is the truth, nothing more."

Re: DNS over Wikipedia

#119

Post by howenterprisey »

Cyberdog wrote: post #113
howenterprisey wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They post contact information, links to profiles where the user can be contacted, and so on, right? If so, they're complicit in whatever people do with that information, even if they don't talk about it on the forums.

By that logic, if someone uses a phone book to harass you via telephone, the phone company is liable. Or, for a more up-to-date example, if someone uses a DNS provider to find a server's IP address and do a DDOS attack against it (as is constantly happening to KF), the DNS provider would be liable.

The phone book and DNS provider are different because they don't say why one would want to harass those people, whereas on KF that information is provided along with their contact info.

Re: DNS over Wikipedia

#120

Post by howenterprisey »

haroldp wrote: post #107
howenterprisey wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They post contact information, links to profiles where the user can be contacted, and so on, right? If so, they're complicit in whatever people do with that information, even if they don't talk about it on the forums.

I think that is a fair line of reasoning. Most online forums have rules against doxing. Then again, most online forums have problems with anonymous users making false claims. Is wikipedia likewise complicit for publishing articles on nefarious topics? How about linking to macdonalds.com, who is surely complicit in more deaths than kiwifarms?

Sure, it's also complicit, but the cost-benefit analysis favors Wikipedia, whereas KF has a much higher bar of utlity to clear because it's publishing information that would be trivial to use to hurt specific individuals. What value could KF provide that's worth that pain? I don't think there's any.
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