Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works

#111

Post by snowwrestler » Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 8:53 PM UTC

alex_c wrote: post #95

klbarry wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: There are some strong arguments that a senate operating behind closed doors would be more effective at ignoring special interests and working together than otherwise. The writers of the constitution did just this (they swore secrecy of anything they talked about in the convention to avoid voter backlash) [1] This is why they initially wanted health care debates behind closed doors - the lobbyists can ma…

The problem with that argument is that it requires voters to trust their representatives' competence and motivations to represent their best interests behind closed doors. That trust is in really short supply right now.

I could make an argument that it is transparency itself that is helping to erode that distrust, as each side seizes on (and/or misrepresents) details to portray the other side as corrupt. When in fact most legislative fights are simply translations of differences of opinion into the legislative realm.

Accusations of corruption are a common framing argument; if I can get you to believe that my opponent is corrupting the system, I can make you believe almost anything about the issue or their point of view. This is much harder to do if both sides negotiate privately and then jointly present a compromise.

Re: Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works

#112

Post by malandrew » Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 9:00 PM UTC

klbarry wrote: post #91

JonnieCache wrote: post #11

American geeks: if you want to fix your congress using your preexisting l33t hacker skillz rather than getting directly involved in politics (and who could blame you,) then here is my best advice: Force your legislature to start using version control. * No more sneaking revisions through in the middle of the night without anyone noticing. * Being able to do `git blame` style operations to resolve individual clauses d…

Counterpoint: There are some strong arguments that a senate operating behind closed doors would be more effective at ignoring special interests and working together than otherwise. The writers of the constitution did just this (they swore secrecy of anything they talked about in the convention to avoid voter backlash) [1] This is why they initially wanted health care debates behind closed doors - the lobbyists can ma…

While I understand the value of secrecy for a dozen or so people to work things out free from the outside influence of special interests, I think this argument severely discounts the benefits of having lots of interested people discuss the issue in a forum.

In Brazil, we've have a lot a of success drafting some documents in a public space. The beauty of doing things in the public is that ideas cannot be presented separately from the person responsible. Every idea is traceable to its author. TBH, I can't think of one idea that I would want to become law where the author shouldn't be held accountable.

Accountability breeds civility.

Re: Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works

#113

Post by rmg » Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 9:01 PM UTC

JonnieCache wrote: post #11

American geeks: if you want to fix your congress using your preexisting l33t hacker skillz rather than getting directly involved in politics (and who could blame you,) then here is my best advice: Force your legislature to start using version control. * No more sneaking revisions through in the middle of the night without anyone noticing. * Being able to do `git blame` style operations to resolve individual clauses d…

Some of this reminds me of https://openparliament.ca/, an opensource project covering Canadian politics. Runs off Django and uses a few different data sources. Great site.

Re: Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works

#114

Post by snowwrestler » Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 9:07 PM UTC

jaysonelliot wrote: post #12

I sat and stared at that screenshot of Internet Quorum for about five minutes with a mixture of shock and despair. I'm a user experience designer. I started my career in the mid '90s, trying to turn green-screen DOS applications into GUIs without letting things like Internet Quorum be the result. I've been fighting the good fight for fifteen years. With that one screenshot, I felt like the whole thing had been for na…

As someone who has interacted with the government quite a bit,I think your post comes across as ignorant. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but rather simply that it's obvious you have not interacted with the offices of your federal elected officials much.

There is a major difference between the bureaucracies of the executive agencies (think DoD $100 hammers), and the political and office staff of members of Congress. Political campaigns are basically startups, and most campaign and Congressional office staff are in their 20s or 30s. They are not scared of technology, and (especially in the House), they are intensely focused on competing every day.

On the other hand, realize that they are working within a system of government whose #1 goal is to make sure that every law gets fully considered. It's built slow on purpose. The value of this is evident every time an opposition is able to slow down or stop a bad law.

Re: Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works

#115

Post by zmanji » Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 9:10 PM UTC

illamint wrote: post #40

You'd think that tech companies involved would have a stronger lobbying arm. Every one of those extremely wealthy individuals that signed onto that "open letter" to congress should be funding lobbyists in combination with Google, ISPs, etc. and every provider out there who stands to lose from the passage of SOPA. Seriously, look at it. The IP lobby is spending millions to buy out Congress and we've got the billionair…

If money influencing Congress is a problem then why should they contribute to it?

Re: Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works

#116

Post by pnathan » Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 9:22 PM UTC

TheCapn wrote: post #24

I wrote a post about this last week saying why this sort of thought is wrong. In summary it is basically this: As people of power in a position to make important decisions it is their PROFESSIONAL. ETHICAL. DUTY. to know all the facts that pertain to the situation. At no point is it our fault to not understand their system in its entirety but it IS their fault to be making conscious decisions that effect people and s…

One of the things geeks have a hard time dealing with is that laws are made for people, by people, and the principle of the legal system is that it must include the illogic of people to cope with the illogic of people.

Re: Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works

#117

Post by JanezStupar » Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 9:27 PM UTC

klbarry wrote: post #91

JonnieCache wrote: post #11

American geeks: if you want to fix your congress using your preexisting l33t hacker skillz rather than getting directly involved in politics (and who could blame you,) then here is my best advice: Force your legislature to start using version control. * No more sneaking revisions through in the middle of the night without anyone noticing. * Being able to do `git blame` style operations to resolve individual clauses d…

Counterpoint: There are some strong arguments that a senate operating behind closed doors would be more effective at ignoring special interests and working together than otherwise. The writers of the constitution did just this (they swore secrecy of anything they talked about in the convention to avoid voter backlash) [1] This is why they initially wanted health care debates behind closed doors - the lobbyists can ma…

Let them work however they want.

I don't care how law comes to be. Be it invoking satanic rituals, getting it written by the lobbyists or just copied off 4chan.

Just use the goddamn source control. And write the freaking commit messages.

Re: Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works

#118

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 9:30 PM UTC

darklajid wrote: post #31

waqf wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, individual Americans also have little control over Congress. I think we're all in the same boat here (and I don't even think the article implied otherwise).

I think the GP refers mostly to the title. No, the 'internet' doesn't need to learn about Congress, since the internet is a world-wide thing. I won't learn about politics in the USA anytime soon (no disrespect here, it's just of no interest to me and that's how I like it), but the article addresses me too.

[deleted]

Re: Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works

#119

Post by georgemcbay » Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 9:31 PM UTC

JonnieCache wrote: post #11

American geeks: if you want to fix your congress using your preexisting l33t hacker skillz rather than getting directly involved in politics (and who could blame you,) then here is my best advice: Force your legislature to start using version control. * No more sneaking revisions through in the middle of the night without anyone noticing. * Being able to do `git blame` style operations to resolve individual clauses d…

There are two huge problems with your proposal:

1) We've already gotten ourselves into a situation where people who don't want changes to the system have immense power. It would be very difficult to force this (or any) solution on them without our own equal or greater power which would require a much larger population than just us geeks and would cost a fuckton of money.

2) What makes you think having this stuff be transparent would actually change anything? The saddest part of US politics in 2011 is the politicians and lobbyists don't even try to hide the fact that they are bending you over the barrel anymore, they just do it mostly out in the open and blatantly. The majority of the population is too numb at this point for knowledge to really matter much. If we can't get them to vote rationally (and so far we can't), who cares if they know who is screwing them?

We know SOPA (and other bad legislation) was bought and paid for. We know who was bought, who bought them and we know how they are going to vote. None of this information is going to help kill it or stop the same from happening in the future.

When you come up with an idea of how to mobilize the non-geeks en masse and you figure out how to do so in a "bi-partisan" enough method to get critical mass, then get back to us.

But VCS for Congress isn't going to solve anything.

Re: Dear Internet: It's no Longer OK Not to Know How Congress Works

#120

Post by waqf » Mon, Dec 19, 2011, 9:33 PM UTC

darklajid wrote: post #31

waqf wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, individual Americans also have little control over Congress. I think we're all in the same boat here (and I don't even think the article implied otherwise).

I think the GP refers mostly to the title. No, the 'internet' doesn't need to learn about Congress, since the internet is a world-wide thing. I won't learn about politics in the USA anytime soon (no disrespect here, it's just of no interest to me and that's how I like it), but the article addresses me too.

The article addresses you advisedly. Unfair as it may seem, Congress has the potential to screw up the internet for the entire world.