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Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

discuss.python.org

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Re: Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

#111

Post by eesmith »

d1l wrote: post #59
duskwuff wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An example of a more recent deprecation is the 'distutils' module which was deprecated in 3.10. distutils was functionally deprecated long before that. Even the Python 2.7 documentation (released in 2010!) recommended that users avoid distutils and use setuptools instead: https://docs.python.org/2.7/library/distutils.html

Isn't setuptools deprecated now too or on the chopping block?

I believe setuptools is more frowned upon - in favor of PEP 517/PEP 518 tools - than deprecated.

Last I checked, there was no good way to package hand-written Python/C extensions than setuptools, but that was a couple of years ago.

In any case, there's a large installed-based of setuptools-based projects making it hard to get rid of.

Re: Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

#112

Post by wakeupcall »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #108
wakeupcall wrote: post #107

I'm normally joyful when a modern language (say, julia) decides to break backward compatibility to improve the language on a fundamental level. This is mostly because I'm not too vested in it. For languages where I have 10+ years of work behind, it's the exact opposite, and where I see the c/c++ model of not breaking backward compatibility a much saner choice. Python in particular is an extremely bittersweet pill to…

This is the top reason I chose Perl for my project. Literally every time I try to use someone else's Python code from GitHub I run into this crap. I wanted my project to be easy to install and run, so I chose Perl.

It's a real shame, since this is a project management issue. You'd expect python to be a stable language given its age. I expected that to be the case at 2.7. Then at 3.1. At 3.12 it's still not the case.

It's reasonable to expect this is not going to change.

Re: Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

#113

Post by acdha »

NegativeK wrote: post #110
worldsavior wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telnet should not be used anymore. Its an old protocol, and not suitable for today especially in the case of security. You can easily migrate to ssh.

Part of security is acknowledging that business needs can't always fit in rigid ideals and coming up with compensating controls.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean you just leave telnet running decades after it became obsolete. That should be a time limited waiver and mitigations, and if you have legacy devices which absolutely need Telnet you should be planning for what you’ll do when something that old finally breaks and you have the resources to port relatively simple code.

Re: Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

#114

Post by acdha »

wakeupcall wrote: post #107

I'm normally joyful when a modern language (say, julia) decides to break backward compatibility to improve the language on a fundamental level. This is mostly because I'm not too vested in it. For languages where I have 10+ years of work behind, it's the exact opposite, and where I see the c/c++ model of not breaking backward compatibility a much saner choice. Python in particular is an extremely bittersweet pill to…

I’ve had that problem with Perl, too, so I think it’s more about which set of third-party packages you depend on and the norms in that space. One interesting tradeoff is that Python’s standard library is pretty large so you have a fair number of programs which can be frictionless by sticking to the stdlib.

Re: Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

#115

Post by driverdan »

wakeupcall wrote: post #107

I'm normally joyful when a modern language (say, julia) decides to break backward compatibility to improve the language on a fundamental level. This is mostly because I'm not too vested in it. For languages where I have 10+ years of work behind, it's the exact opposite, and where I see the c/c++ model of not breaking backward compatibility a much saner choice. Python in particular is an extremely bittersweet pill to…

This doesn't make sense. You can pin versions and it will work forever. If you want to update you need to update your code.

Re: Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

#116

Post by indymike »

worldsavior wrote: post #103
nibbleshifter wrote: post #77

I see telnetlib is on the way out in 3.13 or so, which means a lot of pointless busywork in my future. Its a super useful module for a lot of tasks. The suggested replacements either are asyncio based (which means whole ass rewrites as asyncio is really fucking opinionated), or are excessively restrictive in some stupid way. "Infosec" at work tend to raise a ruckus when their scans detect "older" versions of Python o…

Telnet should not be used anymore. Its an old protocol, and not suitable for today especially in the case of security. You can easily migrate to ssh.

One does not use telnet as telnet when doing security work. Telnet + sclient (you can also use tons of other tools, too) lets you inspect many servers that have TLS security. SSH does not.

Re: Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

#117

Post by henrydark »

acdha wrote: post #113
NegativeK wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of security is acknowledging that business needs can't always fit in rigid ideals and coming up with compensating controls.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean you just leave telnet running decades after it became obsolete. That should be a time limited waiver and mitigations, and if you have legacy devices which absolutely need Telnet you should be planning for what you’ll do when something that old finally breaks and you have the resources to port relatively simple code.

This is circular: sure, if telnet is _obsolete_, then remove it. But being obsolete exactly means no one is using it anymore. If someone is using it, then it's not obsolete.

Regarding security, some would advocate that telnet, or whatever else, is secure at least as much as the network underlying it. So anyone who puts their "legacy" telnet apps on a VPC is fine, and has decades more to enjoy software that has already been running for decades.

Re: Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

#118

Post by indymike »

acdha wrote: post #113
NegativeK wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of security is acknowledging that business needs can't always fit in rigid ideals and coming up with compensating controls.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean you just leave telnet running decades after it became obsolete. That should be a time limited waiver and mitigations, and if you have legacy devices which absolutely need Telnet you should be planning for what you’ll do when something that old finally breaks and you have the resources to port relatively simple code.

I haven't used a telnet server in forever, but I do use the telnet client to connect and introspect various services from time to time.

Re: Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

#119

Post by forgotmypw17 »

wakeupcall wrote: post #112
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the top reason I chose Perl for my project. Literally every time I try to use someone else's Python code from GitHub I run into this crap. I wanted my project to be easy to install and run, so I chose Perl.

It's a real shame, since this is a project management issue. You'd expect python to be a stable language given its age. I expected that to be the case at 2.7. Then at 3.1. At 3.12 it's still not the case. It's reasonable to expect this is not going to change.

I think with backwards compatibility it's "fool me once".

In order to make the most of Lindy Effect, I avoid any dependencies with less than 20 years of backwards compatibility.

For some that means a subset of features. For some like Python it means any python scripts must be optional and have Perl duplicates.

Re: Python 3.12.0 is to remove long-deprecated items

#120

Post by bigbillheck »

worldsavior wrote: post #103
nibbleshifter wrote: post #77

I see telnetlib is on the way out in 3.13 or so, which means a lot of pointless busywork in my future. Its a super useful module for a lot of tasks. The suggested replacements either are asyncio based (which means whole ass rewrites as asyncio is really fucking opinionated), or are excessively restrictive in some stupid way. "Infosec" at work tend to raise a ruckus when their scans detect "older" versions of Python o…

Telnet should not be used anymore. Its an old protocol, and not suitable for today especially in the case of security. You can easily migrate to ssh.

Telnet as a way of logging in to a remote system is bad, sure, but telnet as a program for connecting to a server on any port and talking the protocol manually was great, especially before http got so complicated.
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