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Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

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Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Billing by the day is good advice, but > Engineering is creative work, and you're paid to think - code is just the end product. No you aren't. No one cares if you think. They care about what thinking is (supposed to be) getting them. It just so happens, though, that whatever that is requires thinking. So you do charge for that. But no one is paying you "to think".

> No you aren't. No one cares if you think. If you are a manager, an architect or a scientist, all you do is think. You literally don't do anything else. The only reason diagrams, meetings, documents and research papers exist is to communicate your thinking to others

> If you are a manager, an architect or a scientist, all you do is think. You literally don't do anything else.

First of all, no; it's not true that, "You literally don't do anything else". Even if we were to accept that, though, it's besides the point, because what you're saying right now is a change of subject.

What I said was that you don't get paid to think. You're getting paid for what the customer (hopes) they'll get from you. (And yes, that's true even if they never get anything from you.)

To say it again: nobody cares if you're thinking. The exercise of thinking has no intrinsic value to the people who people who are paying you. All of the value is consequential. Ergo, even if you are thinking over the course of your work day, you are not really getting paid to think. If you could somehow manage to deliver the same results without thinking, you'd still get paid--because you're not actually getting paid "to think".

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#112
I only bill focused time, and never charge for breaks or lunch. I also bill a lower rate (~50%) for regular meetings, and usually no charge for meetings with external vendors/parties where the client needs technical representation or exploratory discussions. I also don't charge for any research or personal learning time required to achieve the task I contract for.

This has let me keep my base rate quite high while not discouraging clients from utilizing me in other aspects of their business. This has gained me far more business than it cost in time, and made client relationships pretty amiable.

It works for me, but I understand that it would not for many. I primarily work on projects/industries I find interesting and have less financial pressure than younger devs.

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#113
Ultimately the only thing that really matters is whether the client feels good when they pay your invoice. Charge twice as much for half as many hours, or the reverse, it doesn't really matter. Deliver results at a cost they are ok with.

The tricky part is how to bill when you have expended effort and time but there are no results to show for some reason.

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#114
I always billed 40 hours. Even when staring out of a window for half that time. Because often, that staring brings the exact nugget of brilliance needed to solve the puzzle.

You are not a widget puncher. You are an engineer solving complex problems. Act like it. Bill like it.

Watch "Fuck you, pay me."

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#115

You bill as long as you are even minimally plugged in. If you can’t crack a beer or head off to the gym, you are on the clock.

I do both, and bill 8 hours while I'm at it. Fuck the greedy bastards. I've solved advanced technical problems at the gym or on the couch with a dark ale.

And I think that can be legit as well. If you are engaged on their problems then you are billing. They are not paying you by the keystroke.

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#116
Tough one.

Some people value hours as output, while others look at things in a project scope (I don't care how long if you charge me a fixed rate).

Two sides.

Employer side

If I'm paying someone for 38hrs a week I want to be able to have access to them during their hours that's all. If they can get the work done during this period I'm happy to not worry about hours per say.

Client Side. We don't charge hourly for anything but retainers (20-30 hr blocks per month). All of our projects are fixed rate but focus on value pricing rather than output (hrs). This negates the BS that comes with tracking hrs and time sheets. It may not work for everyone but it works for us -- plus leaves a lot of fat in our projects.

Few amazing resources for value pricing and ditching hourly billing: Jonathan Stark - Any of his books, podcast and website www.jonathanstark.com Ronald J. Baker -- Implementing Value Pricing Blaire Enns -- The win without pitching manifesto

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#117

I always billed 40 hours. Even when staring out of a window for half that time. Because often, that staring brings the exact nugget of brilliance needed to solve the puzzle. You are not a widget puncher. You are an engineer solving complex problems. Act like it. Bill like it. Watch "Fuck you, pay me."

Me Saturday at 2am laying in bed half asleep, have random thought about what's causing the problem I've been beating my head against on for the last week and a half.

Monday morning comes and yes 100% correct.

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I bill by the hour, not the minute. If I work 10 mins on something and do nothing for the other 50, you are billed an hour. I deal with a lot of contractors. To be clear: If I asked for a single task that takes 5 minutes and they bill me an hour for it, that's 100% fine in my book. Context switching, recording, billing, etc. aren't free. The difference between a 60-minute bill and a 10-minute bill is nothing. Let's…

I used to work as a project manager , where we had a large pool of vetted freelancers. You'd select the type of work, specify the price and the system would send a mass email to those- whoever accepts first, gets the job. Most of our clients were banks or investment funds. The company was providing translation services. So a fund gets to update one word in one of their files and it does happen in 12 different languag…

Transperfect?

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#119
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems surprising to me. Rounding to 15 minutes, sure, but 60 seems surprising. Can more people chime in?

Imagine it was 10 seconds instead. Would rounding it to 15 seconds be reasonable, but 1 minute too much?

By that logic, why not round to a whole day? A week? A month?

Re: Ask HN: Hourly billers, do you bill for only focused work?

#120
post #4

I've been in the same boat. My resentment just built up over years, and for what? It just made me seem like an uptight arsehole. And I probably was too. Looking like I'm working used to be a (minor) concern of mine, but I'm more focused if it doesn't enter my mind. Charge for your time. Don't stop the clock for meetings, short breaks, toilet etc. Lunch is debatable. If you go for a short lunch, with your work colleag…

> Looking like I'm working used to be a (minor) concern of mine, but I'm more focused if it doesn't enter my mind. You can stop an intrusive thought from entering your mind just by realizing that it would harm your focus? Is it possible to learn this power?

I have wondered the same myself.

My solution is simply practice - making a planned, conscious effort to get back to my work whenever I'm distracted. At first, I could lose up to half an hour distracted before realizing that I'm distracted and go back to work. But after a while, the time-to-realize got smaller and smaller. Once you get to a small enough interrupt window, it'e effectively the same as not being interrupted at all.

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