U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#111

Post by banannaise » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

idlehand wrote: post #107

ranUltra wrote: post #98

Another case where EU has this settled. If an airline cancels a flight, they are obligated to refund the money in the same payment method, or book another flight, depending what the passenger chooses. They have to provide accommodation in a hotel if needed & you can request compensation up to 600 euros if the cancellation/delay was done in short notice.

The EU isn't quite there yet, see the issues with refund processing times during covid for an example. I heard some official talking about how airlines shouldn't be allowed to charge you until you step on the plane, which sounds like a brilliant solution to me. Don't have to fight the airline for compensation for a flight that was cancelled if the airline doesn't have your money yet.

> I heard some official talking about how airlines shouldn't be allowed to charge you until you step on the plane, which sounds like a brilliant solution to me.

This sounds insane until you realize that this is essentially how hotels work. You pay a deposit, and the rest isn't owed until you are physically in the hotel.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#112

Post by dundercoder » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

bornfreddy wrote: post #94

kaycebasques wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My time, energy, and inner peace is more valuable than the loss I've incurred ($300) and the mental anguish of waiting for hours to get a customer support person to issue me a refund (someone who has probably been instructed to resist giving me back my money) Vowing to never use their business again (so my loss is limited to a one-time event) and recommending everyone to do the same has worked out pretty well for me…

Chargeback works wonders. They have already determined that they don't care if you fly with them or not, so why not make sure they don't get paid for experience? It is only fair.

This works surprisingly well. At least for Visa. I just initiate the chargeback and they sick their dogs on the vendor.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#113

Post by brewdad » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

kaycebasques wrote: post #79

ceejayoz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you not get your money back from an airline-initiated cancellation? I get giving up on delay compensation - I'm currently fighting travel insurance on an 18 hour delay that incured a hotel stay - but "we canceled your flight, but we're keeping your money" seems like a scenario where the airline clearly has no leg to stand on. Hell, do a credit card chargeback.

My time, energy, and inner peace is more valuable than the loss I've incurred ($300) and the mental anguish of waiting for hours to get a customer support person to issue me a refund (someone who has probably been instructed to resist giving me back my money) Vowing to never use their business again (so my loss is limited to a one-time event) and recommending everyone to do the same has worked out pretty well for me…

Also, there are potentially plenty of costs that can't be recouped when a flight gets canceled. I have an 8 day vacation coming up with my lodging and rental car prepaid and non-refundable at this point. Delta has already changed my flight once in a way that would have cost me two days at my destination. I was able to reroute and actually ended up with a better schedule than my original flight but if they cancel or change it again, I might get my $800 back for the plane tickets but could lose thousands on everything else.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#114

Post by brewdad » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #44

JKCalhoun wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had flights cancelled — they gave us a "voucher", not our money back. The voucher apparently expires so we had to use it or lose it. Also, the voucher was only good for the ticketed passengers it affected, so we could not use it for one of our daughters, for example. Also, when we did try to use it we were told it was not valid for many of the seats/tickets we were trying to book. Where it was valid: upgraded (bus…

I think you just play the call to complain game there. They have to give you like for like; if you bought the flight with a voucher that expires, sure, refund it with a voucher that expires. But if you bought with cash, they should give you cash back. In my experience (at 800k lifetime miles at this point), the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you're not happy with something, call to complain.

This. The voucher is always their first offer and they will claim it is all they can do. Keep pushing and they will refund your money in the same form of payment you used but they don't want you to know you have that right.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#115

Post by idontpost » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 5:31 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #44

JKCalhoun wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had flights cancelled — they gave us a "voucher", not our money back. The voucher apparently expires so we had to use it or lose it. Also, the voucher was only good for the ticketed passengers it affected, so we could not use it for one of our daughters, for example. Also, when we did try to use it we were told it was not valid for many of the seats/tickets we were trying to book. Where it was valid: upgraded (bus…

I think you just play the call to complain game there. They have to give you like for like; if you bought the flight with a voucher that expires, sure, refund it with a voucher that expires. But if you bought with cash, they should give you cash back. In my experience (at 800k lifetime miles at this point), the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you're not happy with something, call to complain.

No post body was provided.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#116

Post by Zircom » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 5:32 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #44

JKCalhoun wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had flights cancelled — they gave us a "voucher", not our money back. The voucher apparently expires so we had to use it or lose it. Also, the voucher was only good for the ticketed passengers it affected, so we could not use it for one of our daughters, for example. Also, when we did try to use it we were told it was not valid for many of the seats/tickets we were trying to book. Where it was valid: upgraded (bus…

I think you just play the call to complain game there. They have to give you like for like; if you bought the flight with a voucher that expires, sure, refund it with a voucher that expires. But if you bought with cash, they should give you cash back. In my experience (at 800k lifetime miles at this point), the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you're not happy with something, call to complain.

I'd imagine this practice of only refunding people that spend hours and hours complaining to customer service is part of what they're getting fine for in the first place. If they're legally obligated to refund you, you shouldn't be getting the runaround like that just to get what is owed to you.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#117

Post by everforward » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 5:33 PM UTC

Benjammer wrote: post #57

gonehome wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that their whole game? If you're going to fly them you should know it. They have the cheapest fares, but they do that by upselling everything and any mistake will be expensive. If that's worth it to you (and sometimes the cost difference is big enough for it to be worth it imo) then it can be a reasonable tradeoff. Flying an extreme lost cost airline that's entire existence is predicated on this model and expec…

A large chunk of people think that every product should be certified as 100% effective and that just being able to read two numbers and see which one is the smaller number is the absolute maximum amount of work that should be required to be an informed customer of any product on the planet. Any defect in the product is "a scam," yet, anyone who pays anything more than the absolute minimum viable option is a total suc…

I don't think it should (or can) be that simple, but I also think some of these airlines intentionally hide that "standard" services aren't included, and sometimes even the pricing.

E.g. [1]. I had no idea the pricing of carry-ons for Frontier changed depending on when/where you add it. It also makes it hard to compare prices across airlines, because I have to remember which charge for luggage and how much, so I can add it to the cost when I use flight finders.

Sometimes the changes are also something I wouldn't think about. E.g. I flew Southwest recently and had no idea that "open seating" was even a thing to check for.

I can see how people who don't fly regularly get confused. I fly a couple times a year and get surprised, I can't imagine the bewilderment of someone who flies once every 5 or 10 years.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#118

Post by rhacker » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

Perhaps a better system: US set up a website to enter your cancelled flight/missed flight because of security and the amount, airline, proof of ticket, etc...

Airline has 36 hours to process a refund or direct payment or US fines the airline $7M each DAY there is at least 1 customer that has not received a refund.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#119

Post by redanddead » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

Hellion wrote: post #17

kqvamxurcagg wrote: post #5

What a bargain for the airlines. A 1% penalty and they probably saved at least 5% in financing costs.

When people see small fines like this, they assume it’s a slap on the wrist. And it is. Because the message is loud and clear: don’t make us pay attention to you and fix your shit.

And why are they not paying attention 99% of the other time? When people lose faith in institutions it's not because they're dumb. They understand things.

And then to be gaslit into thinking "don't trust your eyes", you can see why some people are pretty angry nowadays.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#120

Post by insane_dreamer » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 5:37 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #61

cnelsenmilt wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People objected to the TSA, but the political climate in 2002 was too much in favor of it.

Sure, but that was then and this is now. I guess it's simply not possible to get it back into the "discourse" as a thing that should be changed.

That's the danger with putting measures like this in place as a reaction to a shocking event. Once done it's nearly impossible to undo (Patriot Act, NSA Surveillance Act, etc., are more good examples).

It reminds me of Norway's response to the Utoya massacre. IIRC in a speech at the time the gov said they weren't going to change their system because of one terrorist. (I might be remembering wrong but that's what stuck with me.) The US on the other hand took the opportunity to ram through as many "security" provisions through as possible which are with us to this day and can no longer be questioned as to whether they are indeed necessary or helpful.