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Story: “It would be career limiting..."

doomedprojects.com

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Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#111

Post by ycombobreaker »

silviot wrote: post #82

Would it be legal (and, different question, do you think it would be ethical) in a case like this to quit and go to the client company proposing advice on how to negotiate to avoid the $60M loss? A role of advisor to let them know they need to get their shit together (and provide the required specs) and to guide themto ask for incremental delivery. As far as I can tell such a consultancy is easily worth $1M/year or m…

Seems like acting on privileged imformation for personal gain. I think that would be a very risky idea. OTOH advocating for the same role from within the company is probably a way to repair the project without pre-burning your bridges. You could still leverage those connections to switch companies (basically, show the client thar you want to formally represent them).

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#112

Post by acheron »

duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

And that's how the Challenger blew up.

Sometimes one side is right, and the other side is wrong, and it doesn't matter if they didn't "communicate and strategize" or "read the room".

Obviously this guy is probably writing about a Javascript photo-sharing app or something and it doesn't actually matter, but it's the same principle. The managers who went ahead here would have gone ahead with launching the shuttle for the same reason.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#113

Post by jkingsbery »

duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

I had a similar reaction. It's pretty rare that you want someone to be surprised by what you have to say in a big meeting like that. Ideally, the goal of a large meeting like that is to say, "I've collected the data, we've had different workstreams look at the data, and having spoken to all of you, we've all agreed on X."

> People talk shit about office politics

Right... there are good ways to go about politics, and not-good ways. I think many of us see the not-good ways.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#114

Post by giantg2 »

wccrawford wrote: post #83
giantg2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they have it at my company. Or maybe nobody was nice enough to tell me. That might explain being just a midlevel after 10 years and a masters...

If you're still being paid like a mid-level dev after 10 years, you owe it to yourself to look for a new job and get a massive pay raise. My original plan was to stay 3 years at my first company, and then change jobs for a raise. I ended up staying 5 because they gave me great raises for the first 3... And then screwed me on 2 years, at which point I knew I should have left at 3 after all. After that it gets murkier,…

I don't have the skills to change jobs and I have some home life restrictions too. At this point I'd rather just quiet quit.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#115

Post by giantg2 »

wwilim wrote: post #89
giantg2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they have it at my company. Or maybe nobody was nice enough to tell me. That might explain being just a midlevel after 10 years and a masters...

There are plenty of fish in the sea. Change jobs and see if that helps. It might remedy the burnout as well.

I don't have the skills to change jobs and I have some home life restrictions too. At this point I'd rather just quiet quit.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#116

Post by thih9 »

lumost wrote: post #58

There is also another way of looking at this doomed project. 1. A client didn't know what they wanted, had 60 million to spend on figuring it out, and hired a firm that would let them spend 60 million. 2. The firm was incentivized to provide a nice looking underestimate and then adapt as new work was discovered. 3. The firm continued getting paid as long as the client was happy. 4. The client did not want to be told…

I see your point and I agree.

At the same time I’d say this bigger picture is directly contributing to the secrecy and dishonesty within the firm.

Not only the client is not aware what they actually want and are getting; it looks like the firm is not fully aware what they’re delivering either.

I guess dealing with clients who are wrong may be a risky business.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#117

Post by tootie »

duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

I've personally done this exact thing. If the project is underestimated, there isn't always a solution. I worked on a smaller project for an agency where I was the tech director. Meaning I had a direct line to clients and account managers at all times as well as authority over the execution. I raised flags when the contract was drafted that it was vague and optimistic, but it got signed anyway. I did a prioritization and forecasting exercise to keep scope in check and set milestones for client obligations that would roadblock us. We could see in real time how far off we were and I reminded everyone at every turn. The account team who sold the project were not involved in execution. I back-channeled to our CTO that they messed this up and we have no hope of delivering on budget. We ended blowing the budget by a mile, the ones that sold the project said the team didn't execute and I got let go. As far as I can tell, I did everything right and still lost. My biggest regret is that instead of insinuating the account team were at fault, I should have yelled it at them.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#118

Post by fleddr »

duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

Your take is exactly what is wrong with the culture. An existential problem is not a problem because you didn't sell it correctly. You first need to "massage" the individuals to create some kind of coalition. A coalition willing to accept basic facts or responsibility.

If a CEO were to be a fly on the wall in this room and overhear it all, they ought to fire every single manager in the room. Quite obviously they are willing to bury important facts.

I'm well familiar with these "career limiting" types. I once was in a similar position, on an architectural board dropping a few truth bombs. One of the leaders of the many political kingdoms said to me in private: please know that I think that you're 100% right, but I can't commit to that in public or writing.

These people gladly tank a company for as long as they keep their hands clean.

Middle management games. If your company grows to the size as to have middle management, for god's sake split it up.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#119

Post by lovich »

fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #92
abeppu wrote: post #6

> we hadn’t even received all of the specifications from the customer that we would need to complete the project > And then one of them said “It would be career limiting if the client were to hear this.” > I’d met my responsibility to the company – and the company had threatened me as a result. The author interprets that they were threatened. But really, for whom would it be career limiting? Perhaps I'm being too cha…

Granted, “it would be career limiting” is an ambiguous statement. We can reasonably assume that the story as written omits various context clues, additional communications, body language, and other ensuing events that gave the author a more complete understanding of what the manager meant when they said that.

It’s only ambiguous if you haven’t been exposed to corporatese. It’s as ambiguous as the phrase “as per my last email”. He was directly told he was done getting promotions/raises if that information ever made it to the client

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#120

Post by sillysaurusx »

tdeck wrote: post #109
sillysaurusx wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose you were a junior engineer working with a senior engineer. They gave you a task, and you came to a similar conclusion: it was their job to do X, but they weren't doing it. Would you simply tell them they're not doing their job, or would you ask questions, talk in private, and try to dig in tactfully? When I was 22 or so, I did go around telling a certain senior engineer that they weren't doing their job. I st…

> Would you simply tell them they're not doing their job, or would you ask questions, talk in private, and try to dig in tactfully? Telling a manager "we uncovered work that wasn't in the original spec" isn't literally the same thing as telling them they aren't doing their job.

I think the confusion is, if their job is to execute a $60M contract successfully, and you tell them that it’s going to require an extra 12 months, you’re almost literally telling them they aren’t doing their job. Because arguably they weren’t. Their job was to guide the project successfully, which they didn’t do.

In a situation like that, you can recover, but it requires tact. The end of this story was that they left the company. An alternate ending is that they may have been let go.

If they’re paying you to work on a doomed project, you have to work on it, or change it. And if you want to change it, political maneuvering is necessary.

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