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Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

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Re: Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

#111

Post by russdill »

public_defender wrote: post #101
elgenie wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, a reasonable medical system might err on the side of a few more not entirely necessary C-sections as opposed to more not entirely necessary maternal and baby deaths. As a legacy of upright locomotion balanced with large cranium size and infant helplessness, humans have ended up with an objectively poor design for giving birth to offspring. Death during that process is “natural”.

I think the first part is correct. There is probably an optimal rate of c-section which is materially higher than "strictly necessary" and optimizes for mom+baby health. What I am concerned about is the scheduled c-sections. For most births, there is not really a medically credible way to determine in advance that vaginal birth will be dangerous (as a relevant corrolary, consider that there is no way to meaningfully…

A c-section performed after several hours of active labor leads to a much higher chance of hemorrhage and danger to the baby than a scheduled c-section.

Additionally, there are many factors that can be used to determine the risk of natural birth.

Re: Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

#112

Post by doctor_eval »

public_defender wrote: post #101
elgenie wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, a reasonable medical system might err on the side of a few more not entirely necessary C-sections as opposed to more not entirely necessary maternal and baby deaths. As a legacy of upright locomotion balanced with large cranium size and infant helplessness, humans have ended up with an objectively poor design for giving birth to offspring. Death during that process is “natural”.

I think the first part is correct. There is probably an optimal rate of c-section which is materially higher than "strictly necessary" and optimizes for mom+baby health. What I am concerned about is the scheduled c-sections. For most births, there is not really a medically credible way to determine in advance that vaginal birth will be dangerous (as a relevant corrolary, consider that there is no way to meaningfully…

It's many years since I had children but we were curious about home birth, and what I understood from looking into it was that there is, apparently, no significant difference in overall safety between home births and hospital births.

However, there was a significant difference in the reasons things went wrong. Because in a hospital you're more likely to receive unnecessary treatment due to the "cascade of intervention"; and interventions such as C-sections have inherent risk. While at home, you're more likely to have an actual emergency.

Re: Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

#113

Post by russdill »

rafaelm wrote: post #95
pc86 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but this opinion is demonstrably wrong. Read any of the ACOG literature, there are dozens of peer-reviewed studies about the safety and efficacy of induction, assisted deliveries like vacuums, and both scheduled and emergency c-sections. Scheduled c-sections outperform emergency c-sections in every metric tracked. Scheduled c-sections are no worse for the baby than natural delivery, and if you take into account r…

I don't know about the other numbers, but my wife has had two scheduled c-sections and the recovery for both suuucked when compared to everyone we know that had natural birth. Of course, the process of going through labor pains for many hours might make things even between the two...

I can assure you, it's a much much better situation than three hours of active labor followed by an unplanned or worse, emergency, c-section. Consider yourself fortunate. Labor isn't just painful, it's trauma which makes surgery much more risky and difficult to recover from.

Re: Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

#114

Post by russdill »

ars wrote: post #99
pc86 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but this opinion is demonstrably wrong. Read any of the ACOG literature, there are dozens of peer-reviewed studies about the safety and efficacy of induction, assisted deliveries like vacuums, and both scheduled and emergency c-sections. Scheduled c-sections outperform emergency c-sections in every metric tracked. Scheduled c-sections are no worse for the baby than natural delivery, and if you take into account r…

What? c-sections are MUCH MUCH worse for the mother in every single metric including pain. C-section pain is longer and more severe than natural birth pain, and natural birth pain can be ameliorated which makes it even better - but even with no intervention at all natural birth pain is less than c-section pain. If you are scheduling a c-section it means you are not trying for a natural birth and that means your outco…

If it were a simple choice between natural birth and a planned c-section then sure. But it's a choice between a planned c-section, and the high possibility of an unplanned c-section, an emergency c-section, or in some cases very serious complications like uterine rupture. Doctors and patients decide on a planned c-section with the known risk factors for the patient in mind.

Re: Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

#115

Post by chrisherring »

pc86 wrote: post #94
ezekg wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can only have an opinion on the ridiculous prevalence of c-section deliveries if you’re a medical processional?

No, but this opinion is demonstrably wrong. Read any of the ACOG literature, there are dozens of peer-reviewed studies about the safety and efficacy of induction, assisted deliveries like vacuums, and both scheduled and emergency c-sections. Scheduled c-sections outperform emergency c-sections in every metric tracked. Scheduled c-sections are no worse for the baby than natural delivery, and if you take into account r…

"Scheduled c-sections outperform emergency c-sections in every metric tracked."

The comparison is natural birth to c-sections. Comparing scheduled c-sections to emergency c-sections is a ridiculous thing to track, go compare GP visits vs admission to emergency while you're at it.

Re: Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

#116

Post by russdill »

public_defender wrote: post #104
pc86 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but this opinion is demonstrably wrong. Read any of the ACOG literature, there are dozens of peer-reviewed studies about the safety and efficacy of induction, assisted deliveries like vacuums, and both scheduled and emergency c-sections. Scheduled c-sections outperform emergency c-sections in every metric tracked. Scheduled c-sections are no worse for the baby than natural delivery, and if you take into account r…

My opinion isn't stupid, I have just considered and valued sources that you have disregarded. The ACOG is a trade group that supports medical intervention in birth. It doesn't make their contributions to research on the efficacy of medical intervention in birth irrelevant, but you should consider their contributions in the same light as Exxon's sponsored research into the environmental impacts of oil extraction. Ther…

There's a huge difference between arguing that many scheduled c-sections are not for medical reasons vs that there are not medical reasons for a scheduled c-section.

Re: Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

#117

Post by russdill »

chrisherring wrote: post #115
pc86 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but this opinion is demonstrably wrong. Read any of the ACOG literature, there are dozens of peer-reviewed studies about the safety and efficacy of induction, assisted deliveries like vacuums, and both scheduled and emergency c-sections. Scheduled c-sections outperform emergency c-sections in every metric tracked. Scheduled c-sections are no worse for the baby than natural delivery, and if you take into account r…

"Scheduled c-sections outperform emergency c-sections in every metric tracked." The comparison is natural birth to c-sections. Comparing scheduled c-sections to emergency c-sections is a ridiculous thing to track, go compare GP visits vs admission to emergency while you're at it.

It's 100% relevant. If you have a pregnancy for which there is a high chance of an emergency c-section, an alternative is a scheduled c-section.

Re: Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

#118

Post by ars »

russdill wrote: post #114
ars wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? c-sections are MUCH MUCH worse for the mother in every single metric including pain. C-section pain is longer and more severe than natural birth pain, and natural birth pain can be ameliorated which makes it even better - but even with no intervention at all natural birth pain is less than c-section pain. If you are scheduling a c-section it means you are not trying for a natural birth and that means your outco…

If it were a simple choice between natural birth and a planned c-section then sure. But it's a choice between a planned c-section, and the high possibility of an unplanned c-section, an emergency c-section, or in some cases very serious complications like uterine rupture. Doctors and patients decide on a planned c-section with the known risk factors for the patient in mind.

Oh, how I wish that were true. It's not. Do your own research and you'll see - the majority of c-section are unnecessary, or caused by excessive use of Pitocin (uterine rupture is vanishingly rare - except when Dr.'s administer Pitocin).

Re: Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

#119

Post by autoexec »

adenozine wrote: post #87
jazzyjackson wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you express why someone is wrong instead of just telling them they're wrong and unqualified to have an opinion?

It’s important for purposes of integrity that other commenters know why the person is not a credible source, most especially for important medical information. * Not the person you replied to, just my two cents.

You don't have to be trained and practicing in a field to know some things about it. Nobody should be making medical decisions solely on the advice of strangers on internet forums, but being a public defender doesn't automatically disqualify someone from being a credible source of sound medical information just like being a doctor doesn't automatically make a person credible.

After all, in my country we have a doctor telling people that their illnesses were caused by demon sperm and being on record saying that medical treatments come from alien DNA yet they're still allowed to keep their medical license and practice thanks to the Texas Medical Board.

It's possible that our public_defender is entirely wrong, but isn't better to attack the false claim than to attack a person or dismiss their opinions on the basis of their job title? Don't you suspect that you yourself have some useful information on things outside of your job description?

Re: Why are so many babies born around 8:00 AM? (2017)

#120

Post by im-a-baby »

public_defender wrote: post #77
exhilaration wrote: post #9

The answer is scheduled C-sections and if you haven't read it, Atul Gawande's 2006 New Yorker article on why they've become so common is good read: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/10/09/the-score After watching The Business of Being Born , Gawande's article was really helpful in understanding why things are done the way they are.

The practice of routinely scheduling a c-section is basically a confession that birth medicine doesn't serve the patient. Any reasonable medical system would allow natural birth to progress until medical intervention became necessary.

Why is scheduling c-sections bad? I think it just reflects the reality of our society. First of all, people don’t seem to like giving birth. A vast majority of those who give vaginal birth get epidurals. Is that really preferable? Or is it preferable to writhe in unspeakable pain? Also, women are busy. Scheduling the procedure helps birth fit neatly into a chaotic life. Is that wrong?
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