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Protonmail can delete the wrong email and nobody cares

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Re: Protonmail can delete the wrong email and nobody cares

#111

Post by himinlomax »

josephg wrote: post #70
sokoloff wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’ve been using your mailbox (and deleting mail) for a while, have over 50K mails in it now, and see (what you think is) a UID of 51950 on the most recent email, the chances that it’s “U” are extremely low, meaning there’s a gap in understanding or in implementation.

Every time I see that, I’m floored by it. The fact that message IDs in IMAP change when you delete messages has got to be one of the worst design choices in any in-use protocol. I’m flabbergasted by it. The sooner everyone moves to jmap the better.

> The fact that message IDs in IMAP change when you delete messages

IDs can also change between sessions, and can be different between simultaneous sessions.

Re: Protonmail can delete the wrong email and nobody cares

#113

Post by deelly »

begueradj wrote: post #112

I stopped using it anyway since "ProtonMail logged IP address of French activist after order by Swiss authorities" (Which thing was against the promise they made to users publicly on their website by that time)

So, you don't use email at all now? Is it possible?

Re: Protonmail can delete the wrong email and nobody cares

#114

Post by madsbuch »

Proton mail has a great mission and I generally enjoy their solution.

But it is one of the worst UXs I have ever paid for.

The app rarely works and is slow. Clicking notifications results in an infinite loading screen resulting in you needing to find that email manually.

I am sure this is blamed on the encrypted backend, but to me it just seems lazy regarding UX.

Re: Protonmail can delete the wrong email and nobody cares

#115

Post by jrootabega »

deelly wrote: post #113
begueradj wrote: post #112

I stopped using it anyway since "ProtonMail logged IP address of French activist after order by Swiss authorities" (Which thing was against the promise they made to users publicly on their website by that time)

So, you don't use email at all now? Is it possible?

Once a day you can export your emails to a web server, where you can curl them at your leisure.

Re: Protonmail can delete the wrong email and nobody cares

#116

Post by benhurmarcel »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #85
mr_mitm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are those better options that HN likes? I just switched all my accounts to protonmail, but stories like this make me want to reconsider. The fact that they won't allow me to set up a forwarding rule in case I want to switch again doesn't help.

Anyone has experience with hey.com?

I tried it for a year.

I'm quite positive on it, nice interface and unique useful features, and it's reliable in my experience. However you have to be ok with its particularities, mainly that it doesn't have IMAP, and it's expensive.

Ultimately it's for people who love their unique interface/features, and don't mind paying so much for email.

Re: Protonmail can delete the wrong email and nobody cares

#117

Post by megous »

sneak wrote: post #95

A good workaround for email hosting is to run an IMAP server somewhere you control, and add it to your mail client. The server doesn’t need 24/7 five-nines or anything. It’s not for receiving mail. It could even be on your local laptop if that is the only place you need old mail, though I keep mine on a dedicated hosting machine in a colo so I can use/search it from my iPhones and iPads and other workstations. You us…

> The server doesn’t need 24/7 five-nines or anything. It’s not for receiving mail.

You don't need 24/7 server for receiving email. You can have it offline for a day or two a week and you'd only lose maybe some spam.

I'd call that involuntary graylisting. :D

Re: Protonmail can delete the wrong email and nobody cares

#118

Post by jeroenhd »

josephg wrote: post #70
sokoloff wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’ve been using your mailbox (and deleting mail) for a while, have over 50K mails in it now, and see (what you think is) a UID of 51950 on the most recent email, the chances that it’s “U” are extremely low, meaning there’s a gap in understanding or in implementation.

Every time I see that, I’m floored by it. The fact that message IDs in IMAP change when you delete messages has got to be one of the worst design choices in any in-use protocol. I’m flabbergasted by it. The sooner everyone moves to jmap the better.

IMAP UIDs are guaranteed to be static and unique within a mailbox and a UIDVALIDITY. They don't just change by themselves while you're working on them because if you do you get this bridge issue. They aren't necessarily message IDs (those exist and are part of a different email standard) but clients shouldn't need them to be. If you delete a message, the ID doesn't normally change because all you do is add a flag.

Many mail clients often have a recycle bin/trash folder where "deleted" email will go. When you click delete, the application lies to you about what it's about to do and starts a move to another folder/mailbox.

This completely ignores the standard method IMAP has for deleting email. You can mark email as deleted but that email will remain stored until you call EXPUNGE (or UID EXPUNGE) on the server to empty the trash/actually delete the message. In other words, a virtual trash folder doesn't need to be stored on the server as a mailbox at all, the protocol already has a solution for this.

There are mechanisms for globally unique mail identifiers, like Message-ID, but those are part of the emails themselves and not the protocol. IMAP deals with a combined primary key of (mailbox, UID, UIDVALIDITY) and that works just fine in my opinion. If the UID ever changes, your mail client will know about this because the UIDVALIDITY changes and the cache needs to be refetched. I see my mail client as a view for the backend data, because that's how IMAP was designed.

Re: Protonmail can delete the wrong email and nobody cares

#119

Post by codeptualize »

I switched to Proton a few months ago, I quite like it. The outage a while back and this do worry me a little bit, but for me it's not enough to switch as I don't use the bridge, it has worked really well for me, and don't really like the alternatives for various reasons.

I do think it's relatively early stage. Yes, the email product has been around, but the more business orientated suite of products seems very early.

The email app misses some functionality, but what's there works and looks great. Calendar is progressing nicely. Drive is kinda useless beyond file sharing atm, it really needs a sync app to be useful.

Another qualm I have is that you can't buy extra storage, custom domains, etc. It makes little sense to me, for now it's fine, but at some point it might force me to find a different solution.

They certainly have a lot of work to do, and they need to get a grip on issues like this asap, but I'm willing to wait it out for a bit as I do like the direction, I think there is a lot of potential.

That said I am not sure I would move the company over to Proton like the issue raised, idk if it's ready for that.

Re: Protonmail can delete the wrong email and nobody cares

#120

Post by sneak »

megous wrote: post #117
sneak wrote: post #95

A good workaround for email hosting is to run an IMAP server somewhere you control, and add it to your mail client. The server doesn’t need 24/7 five-nines or anything. It’s not for receiving mail. It could even be on your local laptop if that is the only place you need old mail, though I keep mine on a dedicated hosting machine in a colo so I can use/search it from my iPhones and iPads and other workstations. You us…

> The server doesn’t need 24/7 five-nines or anything. It’s not for receiving mail. You don't need 24/7 server for receiving email. You can have it offline for a day or two a week and you'd only lose maybe some spam. I'd call that involuntary graylisting. :D

Many services use email-based login links or other second-factor codes. Email being offline means you can’t log in to or use these services.
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