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I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

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Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#111

Post by BizarroLand »

breput wrote: post #76
bhhaskin wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GFCI and AFCI are great! But a home isn't going to burst into flames or explode without them. Which is why there are exemptions. 240v at 30A is most definitely not a trivial load. Most homes have 100 amp service. That would be 30% of your homes total power capacity just for changing EV. You wouldn't be able to run AC and the dryer and charge an EV at the same time at that rate. But more importantly there is only so m…

They might not burst into flames, today, but these technologies weren't invented because there was no risk. > That would be 30% of your homes total power capacity just for changing EV That's the thing - most people have a 8 to 12 hour window to fully charge their car(s) overnight and when you and your neighbors are using practically no energy. Worst case is there is no active management and there is just a new peak a…

When I moved into my home the first major upgrade I did was upgrading my electrical panel. The home was built in the early 80's and had a 100amp panel.

Putting in a 200 amp panel ran me about $1,000. Power company checked off on it and upgraded my meter in the process. I also added a 240v 30amp socket in the garage for things like an EV, and put a whole house surge protector on in the process.

My house has rock solid power at every socket and plenty of capacity for the future as well, definitely worth the investment.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#112

Post by BizarroLand »

sien wrote: post #42
bhhaskin wrote: post #3

This is one of the many reasons why I firmly believe that hydrogen hybrid are the future to replace gas vehicles. Charging at mass scale is just not feasible nor practical for most people. We can't even roll broadband out properly let alone the massive amounts of infrastructure required to deliver enough power to every home. That leaves centralized charging hubs which will quickly become overwhelmed and a massive tim…

Why not electro-fuels ? Prometheus and others have plans that may come to fruition. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31264388

It's a good idea but the issue is convincing big money to buy in. Without billions of dollars invested this tech will just get thrown in the back with all of the other world changing technologies that need billions of dollars of investment to succeed.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#113

Post by exabrial »

Robotbeat wrote: post #55
bhhaskin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply not practical out side of large urban areas in the US. Not only is distance a factor but also weather. No one is going to be riding an Ebike in 10° winter weather, and a lot of people commute 60+ miles a day. Not to mention that public transportation in a lot of areas can be... Let's just say perceived as unsafe. Hydrogen (by itself) is as clean as it can be. The byproduct is water.

Hydrogen requires about 4 times the input electricity per mile driven than electricity for battery electric cars. That’s why it’s so much more expensive and almost no one uses it. And the fueling infrastructure is crazy expensive. Personally, I think if we do have hydrogen cars in the future, hydrogen cars should require a plug and an enlarged lithium battery (say, 10kWh at least). Otherwise we’ll need to produce FAR…

> Hydrogen requires about 4 times the input electricity per mile

Why does this matter?

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#114

Post by dpifke »

amluto wrote: post #109
LinuxBender wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they ran the standard 4 wire cable one of the wires will be a grounding wire that goes back to the panel. The panel should already have an earth ground and grounding rod(s). Adding a second grounding rod anywhere else would violate code in most states and potentially create a grounding loop and fire hazard. To correctly add more grounding rods in multiple locations would require a common ground bus where all groun…

> Adding a second grounding rod anywhere else would violate code in most states and potentially create a grounding loop and fire hazard. Can you cite the relevant portion of the code? Or, for that matter, can you explain why exactly a ground loop is a fire hazard? If this was a hazard, then buildings would burn down when a grounded metallic conduit was buried underground (perfectly legal and very common, although dub…

Multiple grounding rods (electrodes) are permitted by § 250.52, but they have to be bonded together and kept away from other (non-bonded) grounding systems:

Electrode Spacing. Where more than one of the electrodes of the type specified in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(7) are used, each electrode of one grounding system (including that used for strike termination devices) shall not be less than 1.83 m (6 ft) from any other electrode of another grounding system. Two or more grounding electrodes that are bonded together shall be considered a single grounding electrode system.

http://thenecwiki.com/2021/02/article-250/

That said, it would be very strange to add another grounding rod just because you added another breaker or outlet—I can't think of any circumstance where that would be required, unless the existing service entrance was not properly grounded, in which case you have bigger problems.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#115

Post by xsmasher »

bhhaskin wrote: post #26
socialismisok wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen isn't either. The real solution is to not have so many gas vehicles. There's also no reason we can't provide charging at destinations rather than homes. Workplaces, shopping centers, etc. Transit, trains, ebikes, etc. are all significantly more efficient, less polluting, and just better solutions all around.

This is simply not practical out side of large urban areas in the US. Not only is distance a factor but also weather. No one is going to be riding an Ebike in 10° winter weather, and a lot of people commute 60+ miles a day. Not to mention that public transportation in a lot of areas can be... Let's just say perceived as unsafe. Hydrogen (by itself) is as clean as it can be. The byproduct is water.

Public transit practical in small towns in Europe. How do we fix it in the US?

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#116

Post by mbushey »

gorkish wrote: post #105

Siemens has a new product that basically bypasses this entire problem by installing as a mezzanine connector into the power meter. Called the ConnectDER https://connectder.com/ Regardless of what people will continue to claim, a 110V 15A outlet is really not enough. It's possible if you live your life on a strict schedule, drive very little, are very diligent about keeping your car plugged in, and don't mind having t…

Really? I have a Nissan Leaf and a Tesla Model Y. I alternate using the same outlet to keep both of them fully charged. The Leaf only charges at home, and I only use Superchargers for the Y when I'm on road trips. I already have 220V in the garage, it's just not worth spending a few hundred on a 220v charger as 110v meets my needs completely. The only reason that I might go 220v would be if I install solar panels and want to dump more power into the cars during daylight hours.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#117

Post by natch »

IndrekR wrote: post #35
natch wrote: post #12

Profanity alert. Don’t read this if you are sensitive. You. Do. Fucking. Not. Need. An EV charger, to charge your EV. A 110 or 220 outlet with a cord and an adapter will work just fine. Apologies for the US centric terminology but I expect the situation is roughly the same (though numbers vary) elsewhere. We did TWO Teslas in an apartment for two years sharing (alternating cars) a single plug of a single 110 outlet.…

If you buy electricity at the (hourly) market rate, you want to charge when it is cheapest and charge reasonably fast. On a typical 11kW home charger here in EU, that means about 6 hours for full charge or 1..2 hours for daily top-up. All the benefits for buying the electricity at hourly demand based rate disappear when full charging times approach 24h. This has two benefits: it is cheaper to charge and the grid work…

An installed charger is not needed for scheduled charging if the car already does it. Buy an EV with good modern features and you’ll be fine with just an outlet.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#118

Post by natch »

maximus-decimus wrote: post #103
IndrekR wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you buy electricity at the (hourly) market rate, you want to charge when it is cheapest and charge reasonably fast. On a typical 11kW home charger here in EU, that means about 6 hours for full charge or 1..2 hours for daily top-up. All the benefits for buying the electricity at hourly demand based rate disappear when full charging times approach 24h. This has two benefits: it is cheaper to charge and the grid work…

How long before you recoup the cost of the charger though?

There is absolutely no financial advantage to having an installed charger versus an outlet. There are other advantages. It might fit your hand better during the 2 seconds it takes to plug in. It might be better in the rain if your outlet is exposed to driving rain in wind. It might look more impressive to the neighbors. It looks more impressive to the landlord or wife or anyone who might be approving a budget for upgrading wires inside a wall or upgrading a panel. It does not save any money.

If you are thinking of charge scheduling, the car does that. Or should… if you buy an EV from a good EV company, not an old crusty legacy automaker.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#119

Post by yellowapple »

aynyc wrote: post #101
sschueller wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grandfathering in electrical codes seems quite dangerous. At some point wouldn't the city just require it or deem the property unsafe?

Because it would destroy poor-middle class home owners and renters. This year, it's electrical, next year is gas line, the year after is sewer, soon enough, poor-middle class won't be able to afford any homes and rents will go up. This is particular true in larger cities.

Defer code compliance to time of sale/purchase. Basically: if you want to sell it as a house, it has to be up to code, but until then, go hog-wild. Seems like that would solve the issue - and in practice I'm pretty sure that's already the case.
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