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Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

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Re: Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

#111

Post by whakim »

robalni wrote: post #107
cercatrova wrote: post #84

I used to think this. I even used uMatrix (RIP) to disable all JS. After a while though, it simply wasn't worth it. You'll have a vocal minority on HN of JS disablers, but the truth is most people don't know or care about JavaScript, much less want to disable it. So, it's really not worth catering to this 0.2% or even 1% of people as the article cites. There are just too many interesting things JS can do. I've been p…

I don't care how many people there are that care about whether they are running javascript. The problem persists even if 0 people care about it. The problem is that people are getting abused, even if they don't care about it. They are unknowingly lending their computers to unknown people who use them as their tools by running code on them. My computer is my tool and nobody else's. If website owners think it's totally…

I'm not really sure I get the point. Simply opening a browser means you're allowing the browser developer to run code on your computer, and you're giving them permission to do so by downloading, installing and using their software.

Re: Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

#112

Post by nfw2 »

robalni wrote: post #107
cercatrova wrote: post #84

I used to think this. I even used uMatrix (RIP) to disable all JS. After a while though, it simply wasn't worth it. You'll have a vocal minority on HN of JS disablers, but the truth is most people don't know or care about JavaScript, much less want to disable it. So, it's really not worth catering to this 0.2% or even 1% of people as the article cites. There are just too many interesting things JS can do. I've been p…

I don't care how many people there are that care about whether they are running javascript. The problem persists even if 0 people care about it. The problem is that people are getting abused, even if they don't care about it. They are unknowingly lending their computers to unknown people who use them as their tools by running code on them. My computer is my tool and nobody else's. If website owners think it's totally…

Do you feel the same abuse when you download a desktop application, and it runs code?

You are free to revoke your permission for any site to run javascript, but website owners are not obligated to go out of their way to provide their services to you if you choose to do so.

Re: Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

#113

Post by robalni »

nfw2 wrote: post #112
robalni wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care how many people there are that care about whether they are running javascript. The problem persists even if 0 people care about it. The problem is that people are getting abused, even if they don't care about it. They are unknowingly lending their computers to unknown people who use them as their tools by running code on them. My computer is my tool and nobody else's. If website owners think it's totally…

Do you feel the same abuse when you download a desktop application, and it runs code? You are free to revoke your permission for any site to run javascript, but website owners are not obligated to go out of their way to provide their services to you if you choose to do so.

> Do you feel the same abuse when you download a desktop application, and it runs code?

Not if the source code is available. Other reasons for no are that it's not automatic and invisible.

> You are free to revoke your permission for any site to run javascript, but website owners are not obligated to go out of their way to provide their services to you if you choose to do so.

People don't do that enough for it to have much of an effect.

Re: Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

#114

Post by robalni »

whakim wrote: post #111
robalni wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care how many people there are that care about whether they are running javascript. The problem persists even if 0 people care about it. The problem is that people are getting abused, even if they don't care about it. They are unknowingly lending their computers to unknown people who use them as their tools by running code on them. My computer is my tool and nobody else's. If website owners think it's totally…

I'm not really sure I get the point. Simply opening a browser means you're allowing the browser developer to run code on your computer, and you're giving them permission to do so by downloading, installing and using their software.

The differences between the browser I'm currently using and a random website with javascript on the web are:

- The browser's source code is available so I can see what it does.

- The browser is distributed by Debian who also distribute most other software I use so there is 1 organization to trust instead of 1000.

- The browser is not downloaded and executed and upgraded automatically, so it's possible for me to know what code runs and doesn't run on my computer.

- There are multiple browsers I can choose from. I can't choose which javascript to use when I visit a website.

- I can modify the browser if I want it to work differently (which I have actually done). It's harder to modify the javascirpt on a website because it's updated every time and very tied to the rest of the site and is often unreadable.

- Modifications can be distributed, so if I make a better version, other people can use it and forget about the original version if it was bad.

Re: Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

#115

Post by int_19h »

JakeAl wrote: post #110
recursivedoubts wrote: post #23

I would very much like for HTML to incorporate concepts from htmx (particularly more flexible transclusion) so that more dynamic websites and applications can be built entirely in HTML. JavaScript became popular because HTML stopped moving forward as a hypermedia, focusing instead on client-side features that, while certainly nice, didn't increase the expressive power of the format in terms of hypermedia.

MS had a great solution back in the day with their Dynamic HTML. The anti-MS community opted for what we have been left with instead of adopting what MS came up with. DHTML was pretty awesome. https://archive.org/details/dynamichtmlrefer00redm

I'm not sure what you mean, because DHTML was really just an umbrella term for the then-new HTML+CSS+JS combo; the "dynamic" part came from the latter two.

Re: Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

#116

Post by int_19h »

kgbcia wrote: post #16

i don't think vanilla html saves more bandwidth than JavaScript. if a part of your website needs update (react,vue,fetch) only that part is transmitted over the wire. It's also less jarring for the user, since most browsers would scroll the content to the top. Also, without JavaScript, some webapps would require storing user state in a server database rather than in memory of the browser. Fix html and we won't need J…

The bandwidth you save with partial updates has to be weighed against the size of React/Vue/whatever that had to be downloaded in the first place in order to enable them.

Re: Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

#117

Post by robalni »

connordoner wrote: post #109
robalni wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care how many people there are that care about whether they are running javascript. The problem persists even if 0 people care about it. The problem is that people are getting abused, even if they don't care about it. They are unknowingly lending their computers to unknown people who use them as their tools by running code on them. My computer is my tool and nobody else's. If website owners think it's totally…

Unless you want to go down the ultra-pedantic route that HTML is markup rather than code, why are you reading HN?

The difference between HTML and Javascript is that it's much harder to use peoples' computers for arbitrary things through only HTML. With Javascript it's done all the time. I don't know what this has to do with me reading HN but I can add that HN works without Javascript which is something more websites should do so we can get rid of the expectation that you have the right to run arbitrary script code on peoples' computers when they just want to read a page of text.

Re: Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

#118

Post by verisimilitudes »

whakim wrote: post #111
robalni wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care how many people there are that care about whether they are running javascript. The problem persists even if 0 people care about it. The problem is that people are getting abused, even if they don't care about it. They are unknowingly lending their computers to unknown people who use them as their tools by running code on them. My computer is my tool and nobody else's. If website owners think it's totally…

I'm not really sure I get the point. Simply opening a browser means you're allowing the browser developer to run code on your computer, and you're giving them permission to do so by downloading, installing and using their software.

It's funny how this argument doesn't fly with people when it comes to blocking advertisements, with one man claiming it takes food out of his child's mouth.

Re: Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

#119

Post by krapp »

robalni wrote: post #117
connordoner wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you want to go down the ultra-pedantic route that HTML is markup rather than code, why are you reading HN?

The difference between HTML and Javascript is that it's much harder to use peoples' computers for arbitrary things through only HTML. With Javascript it's done all the time. I don't know what this has to do with me reading HN but I can add that HN works without Javascript which is something more websites should do so we can get rid of the expectation that you have the right to run arbitrary script code on peoples' co…

You do have the right to run arbitrary script code on people's computers. That's been a fundamental part of what the web is and what it is capable of for over 20 years. You, as a web developer, publisher, what have you, have the right to write whatever code you want, even to render text, just as you have the right to design your own page layout, choose your own fonts and colors. It's up to the user agent to decide whether or not to run the code.

Re: Your website should work without JavaScript (2021)

#120

Post by robalni »

krapp wrote: post #119
robalni wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between HTML and Javascript is that it's much harder to use peoples' computers for arbitrary things through only HTML. With Javascript it's done all the time. I don't know what this has to do with me reading HN but I can add that HN works without Javascript which is something more websites should do so we can get rid of the expectation that you have the right to run arbitrary script code on peoples' co…

You do have the right to run arbitrary script code on people's computers. That's been a fundamental part of what the web is and what it is capable of for over 20 years. You, as a web developer, publisher, what have you, have the right to write whatever code you want, even to render text, just as you have the right to design your own page layout, choose your own fonts and colors. It's up to the user agent to decide wh…

Something is not right just because it has been happening for a long time.

> It's up to the user agent to decide whether or not to run the code.

Yes, it should be. The problem is that things are constructed so that that solution doesn't work because most people don't know how to do it and if you do it a lot of things break. That forces people to let others take control over their computers when they may not actually want to do that. If I let you control my computer, that should be because I want to, not because I'm forced to in order to be able to do what I need to do.

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