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Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

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Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#111

Post by grogenaut »

mannykannot wrote: post #88
cptaj wrote: post #18

An important factor seems to be precision engineering. I saw the point made in The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester, where they argue that while all the science and experimentation was there, it wasn't until precision parts were widely available that steam engines really solved all their problems and became viable https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-per…

So then the next question is: why was precision engineering not developed earlier? One apparently plausible answer is that the perceived need did not arise earlier, but that leads into the question of what changed that perception? If the answer is "the development of the steam engine", we have a causal loop which is not clearly anchored to any particular time. One of the often-overlooked prerequisites for Watt's impr…

Non-precision items can be more field expedient to fix. If you're 30 days from the factory do you want something only they can fix, or something you can with the local blacksmith or an axe, rope and a log?

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#112

Post by grogenaut »

bluGill wrote: post #78
MeteorMarc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the first lathes could not be steampowered!

Even after the steam eninge was common foot powered lathes existed. Or you can power a lathe from water.

Bow lathes are fun looking and can be made with low tech.

The fun thing with lathes is they are able to make things more precise than they are, power of screws really. So they're a bootstrap technology.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#113

Post by bell-cot »

foobarian wrote: post #53
virtualritz wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 80's my uncle, a trained mechanical engineer, tried to build a working scale small gauge steam locomotive at home for fun. He was a train geek. I reckon it was maybe 1/16 scale or the like. He machined all parts on his Emco Unimat II, a 70's hobbyist convertible lathe. The final piece was beautiful. Ultimately the kettle couldn't build up enough steam because of tolerances of parts. He machined the resp. parts…

I wonder if he was running into a cubed/squared scaling issue where scaling down the model made the operation impractical. Given same tolerances, a 16x larger dimension of the tank gives 16^3 more steam volume or at least 16^2 more heat flux which might make the gaps a lot more forgiving.

Partly. But the weights to be move - the locomotive itself, any model cars, etc. - also weigh 1/(16^3) as much as the full-sized ones.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#114

Post by 13of40 »

grogenaut wrote: post #107
steveBK123 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern people overestimate how long we have been able to engineer things precisely. I used to use a lot of vintage German cameras. Really right up through the 1950s the tolerances were wide enough that no two cameras were exactly alike. The parts were all replaceable, and there were often adjustments & shims inside to keep things in spec. For example, one camera might have part A that's a little long so it's matching…

Modern items have stickers about warranty void if you open it, etc, other warnings like that. My 100% user serviceable coffee machine recommends you send it to them, cars encourage you to go to dealers. I don't see how that sticker is different in the 50s and now. There's a profit motive for them to fix it for you even if they don't charge it's still reputational (they stand behind their work). Having this sticker on…

I think the most egregious one of these I've seen is a digital multimeter I have that says there are no user serviceable parts inside. Pretty standard, but it implies that even the sort of person who uses a multimeter isn't qualified to replace the fuse and 9v battery inside it.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#115

Post by MichaelCollins »

cptaj wrote: post #18

An important factor seems to be precision engineering. I saw the point made in The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester, where they argue that while all the science and experimentation was there, it wasn't until precision parts were widely available that steam engines really solved all their problems and became viable https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-per…

The atmospheric steam engines which were first put to practical use did not require precise manufacturing. The cylinder and pistons were finished by hand and eyeballed for correctness (far from precise.) The gap was made up using leather seals and a layer of water sitting on top of the piston.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#116

Post by steveBK123 »

anjc wrote: post #97
hef19898 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cameras always have been optical appliances. And as such they in deed do require a lot of precision. Especially those with changeable lenses, unless you don't mind your focal plane not being where your film, or nowadays sensor, is.

I presumed OP was talking about winders and so on. If shims were used for critical elements like optical alignment, I'm guessing that it's because this was the cheaper route to precision, rather than due to an inability to measure and manufacture precisely.

Optics absolutely had shims in this era. Talking 1930-1950 era Leica lenses for example. 50mm lenses that you can’t just swap in a replacement element without adjusting shims because they would match them and shim at factory.

I recall some lenses from the era having their actual exact focal length inscribed inside since they weren’t exactly 50mm and the variance was 0.2mm or so.

Don’t even get me started on Soviet cameras.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#117

Post by anon_123g987 »

steveBK123 wrote: post #35
cptaj wrote: post #18

An important factor seems to be precision engineering. I saw the point made in The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester, where they argue that while all the science and experimentation was there, it wasn't until precision parts were widely available that steam engines really solved all their problems and became viable https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-per…

Modern people overestimate how long we have been able to engineer things precisely. I used to use a lot of vintage German cameras. Really right up through the 1950s the tolerances were wide enough that no two cameras were exactly alike. The parts were all replaceable, and there were often adjustments & shims inside to keep things in spec. For example, one camera might have part A that's a little long so it's matching…

> [...] the camera needed frequent enough service [...]

Let's hope that in the future software engineering becomes mature enough that we don't need daily security updates.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#118

Post by Ancapistani »

shagie wrote: post #41
cptaj wrote: post #18

An important factor seems to be precision engineering. I saw the point made in The Perfectionists: How Precision Engineers Created the Modern World by Simon Winchester, where they argue that while all the science and experimentation was there, it wasn't until precision parts were widely available that steam engines really solved all their problems and became viable https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35068671-the-per…

While science fiction, the Safehold series by David Weber gets into this. As the series opens, everything is made by its own guild/foundry to the point of cannon balls for one ship wouldn't work on another because of the lack of standardization. Guns (muskets) where such that if a part broke you needed a gunsmith to craft a new part for it... which might have slightly different dimensions so it was best if it didn't…

> Consider the question then of "at what point in the history of the world could you take three rifles made by the same maker and swap parts and still have it be perfectly serviceable?"

It depends on the weapon.

To this day, there are many designs that require "fitting" for some parts. The M1911, a .45 ACP semi-automatic handgun that entered US service in 1911 and is still a relatively popular, doesn't have truly interchangeable parts. The interface between the sear and hammer, or the trigger bar and sear, must be manually carefully shaped for feel, safety, and reliability. The "ramp" that guides the cartridge into the chamber is similar, and it's common to get new guns that won't reliably work with common brands or designs of ammunition.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#119

Post by mannykannot »

grogenaut wrote: post #111
mannykannot wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then the next question is: why was precision engineering not developed earlier? One apparently plausible answer is that the perceived need did not arise earlier, but that leads into the question of what changed that perception? If the answer is "the development of the steam engine", we have a causal loop which is not clearly anchored to any particular time. One of the often-overlooked prerequisites for Watt's impr…

Non-precision items can be more field expedient to fix. If you're 30 days from the factory do you want something only they can fix, or something you can with the local blacksmith or an axe, rope and a log?

But for this to explain the prior absence of precision engineering, and for that absence to explain the timing of the development of the steam engine, this would have to change around 1700. As far as I know, it didn't.

Re: Why wasn’t the steam engine invented earlier? Part III

#120

Post by spaetzleesser »

Damogran6 wrote: post #68
steveBK123 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern people overestimate how long we have been able to engineer things precisely. I used to use a lot of vintage German cameras. Really right up through the 1950s the tolerances were wide enough that no two cameras were exactly alike. The parts were all replaceable, and there were often adjustments & shims inside to keep things in spec. For example, one camera might have part A that's a little long so it's matching…

I had a 89 Corvette...designed in the late 70's early 80's before computers were generally used to do so. It was a mass of shims and slotted holes to get things to line up. I had a 1998 Corvette...designed in the early 90's with CADCAM. No shims. Things like a door latch and door made by entirely different companies, the three holes to attach the latch weren't shimmed or slotted, and the replacement fit exactly with…

“I had a 89 Corvette...designed in the late 70's early 80's before computers were generally used to do so. It was a mass of shims and slotted holes to get things to line up.”

This has nothing to do with computers. Detroit just didn’t care about building decent cars back then. Mercedes and many others were able to build very nicely designed cars long before CAD/CAM was available.

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