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Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

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Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well.... no. It's only necessary to know whether suffering exists (it does). After that it's sufficient to consider whether there's a greater than zero chance of creating it (there seems to be). That's enough to say "let's not do this until we have better data". If it turns out the second step is unknowable, that's enough to say "let's never do this". These are subjective decisions, and some may suggest that there ar…

> After that it's sufficient to consider whether there's a greater than zero chance of creating it (there seems to be). That is a Kantian, deontological approach, an ethical framework not shared by all. The utilitarian would ask how much suffering would be caused as compared to how much good it would produce.

Erm no. I'm not advocating morality driven by "duty". I'm pointing out the pragmatic issue that we don't know where we're heading, so perhaps we should pause and have a good hard think about the possibilities :)

Utilitarianism also comes with its own issues, of course. Exploitation of minorities and the disempowered, for example (including manufactured brains-in-vats, it seems).

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#112
post #98

They are using human neurons for this? The one substrate we can be sure of is capable of producing consciousness?

Yes imagine a life where you play pong for orgasms.

I hope you’re joking because that actually sounds like a terribly impoverished life for a human consciousness.

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: why "should" we be going in this direction?

To fight neurodegenerative diseases

Except the lab doing this make no mention of treating disease. They want to "shortcut machine learning" by using living tissue to perform tasks: https://corticallabs.com/

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#114
post #64

> he work is a proof of principle that neurons in a dish can learn and exhibit basic signs of intelligence Absolutely not. This shows that you can teach neurons to exhibit a reflex behavior adapted to the given stimuli - which shouldn’t come as a surprise. At best this is jellyfish-like level of intelligence.

Agreed....but! This opens some interesting thoughts about various things. Sure this Petri dish is not intelligent and conscious. But it's just a load of neurons right, just like the Petri dish in our head. Are we intelligent and conscious in that case? Or are we just a scaled up Petri dish that reacts to more varied stimuli?

This leads to a circular problem: if we resist the notion that we're just scaled-up Petri dish brains (perhaps because we "feel conscious") how can we be sure the Petri dish mini-brains are so different from us? In which case, are they conscious after all, to some degree?

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#115

They are using human neurons for this? The one substrate we can be sure of is capable of producing consciousness?

"Hundreds of thousands of human neurons growing in a dish" It seems doubtful that hundreds of thousands of human neurons would lead to consciousness. "Although the company calls its system DishBrain, the neurons are a far cry from an actual brain, Kagan says, and show no signs of consciousness." ...then again, would they be able to tell? There's not a lot of I/O in this situation.

Indeed. Although the lab couldn't check for signs of consciousness. If they'd been able to do so, they'd have cracked the "hard problem" of consciousness, which would be far bigger news. So this is blather at best, and ethics-washing at worst.

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#116
From the website of the lab doing this https://corticallabs.com

Human neural networks raised in a simulation

The neurons exist inside our Biological Intelligence Operating System (biOS). biOS runs the simulation and sends information about their environment, with positive or negative feedback. It interfaces with the neurons directly. As they react, their impulses affect their digital world.

Our first minds

The dishbrain is currently being developed at the CL0 laboratory in Melbourne, AU. We bring these neurons to life, and integrate them into The biOS with a mixture of hard silicon and soft tissue. Our first cohort have learnt to play Pong. They grow, adapt and learn as we do.

Silicon meets neuron

Neurons are cultivated inside a nutrient rich solution, supplying them everything they need to be happy and healthy. Their physical growth is across a silicon chip, which has a set of pins that send electrical impulses into the neural structure, and receive impulses back in return.

The Ultimate Learning Machine

Those actions have a positive or negative effect in biOS, which the mind perceives, adapting to improve that feedback. The human neuron is self programming, infinitely flexible, the result of four billion years of evolution. What digital models try and emulate, we begin with.

Why?

There are many advantages to organic-digital intelligence. Lower power costs, more intuition, insight and creativity in our intelligences. But most importantly we are driven by three core questions.

What will we discover if our intelligences train themselves?

We know an organic mind is a better learner than any digital model. It can switch tasks easily, and bring learnings from one task to another. But more important is what we don’t know. What are the limits of a mind connected to infinity? What can it do with data it literally lives in?

What happens if we take a shortcut to generalised intelligence?

Machine Learning algorithms are a poor copy of the way an organic neural network functions. So we’re starting with the neuron, replacing decades of algorithms with millions of years of evolution. What happens as these native intelligences start solving the problems we’d previously left to software?

How can we surpass the limits of silicon?

Silicon is raw, rigid, unchanging. Our organic neural networks sit on top of this raw power, but the way they grow and evolve isn’t limited to the software they run on. There is no software, it's coded in their DNA. How will computing change as we shift from hard silicon to soft tissue?

RFN: Request For Neurons

The dishbrain is learning and growing in biOS today, and soon we’re opening an early access preview for selected developers. The biOS is our simulation environment, where you can program tasks, challenges and objectives for our minds. Join our developer program to get early access to our SDK, and secure training time with our minds.

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finally a sliver of future I'm psyched about. Induce stem cells to form neurons? Next step induce new neurons to form new connections in existing brain!?

Yes but given that mouse neurons were used as a base, you now have a strong craving for cheese.

Fun fact: mice do not particularly like cheese[0].

[0] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/531921...

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#118
post #66

A question for someone who understands the neurology and biology of this much more than I do: Once I have a group of neurons like this trained to do something, can I actually count on them to continue performing that task until they die? Or is it possible they spontaneously reorganize or "learn" a previously unseen behavioral pattern?

A related question: can I indefinitely test they're performing their task correctly? When operating these neurons for actual tasks, real time challenge-response-like testing is probably a good idea. But if they can learn, eventually they may be able to trick the tests. How would one design automated tests to evaluate the state of learning-capable systems?

What's more, you can apply evolution to your Petri dish.

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#119
post #64

> he work is a proof of principle that neurons in a dish can learn and exhibit basic signs of intelligence Absolutely not. This shows that you can teach neurons to exhibit a reflex behavior adapted to the given stimuli - which shouldn’t come as a surprise. At best this is jellyfish-like level of intelligence.

Have you seen magic tricks revealed? It's such a let down. After that you can't unsee how it's done and it becomes a regular guy concealing some information. Before that there was a mystery how the heck it was done. It's the same thing going on here, both with AI and the understanding of the wetware mind.

Except with AI and wetware there's still a mystery remaining. Not all cases have a rigorous description of what's going on in the middle level of abstraction.

Low level: proteins/matrices.

Middle level: ???

High level: it thinks!

Re: Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every new AI gets demoted pretty quickly. Playing pong would have been once called AI.

That’s because once we understand it and achieve it it’s no longer considered intelligence. The same will happen when we have actual human robots that are indistinguishable from real humans. People will say “obviously not intelligence or anything related to it, just doing x, y, and z”

Clearly, the sheep they dream of are electric.
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