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Dear Chess World

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Re: Dear Chess World

#111

Post by tux1968 »

smoldesu wrote: post #57
browningstreet wrote: post #39

These situations are never great.. there's no "best way to handle things" when the drama reaches a certain level. Carlsen specifically mentions that there are Niemann details he can't or won't reveal. Niemann could release him from that confidence, but I think Carlsen's reputation is strong enough that doubting this doesn't seem reasonable. Personally, I think shading Carlsen, in isolation, seems misguided to me.

> there's no "best way to handle things" when the drama reaches a certain level. I agree, but that's mostly where my frustration with Carlsen is rooted. He had the choice with how to handle this - he went out of his way to choose the dramatic route. He better have some conclusive evidence to back up the hurricane-sized shitstorm he's whipped up here. If it turns out the entire chess community got manipulated by a sin…

Carlsen has an impeccable reputation for being principled and magnanimous in defeat, and always complimentary and respectful of his opponents after a loss, acknowledging their deserved win and well played game. Frankly, i'm shocked more people aren't being supportive of this single decision of his, that stands alone in his long and rather glorious career.

Re: Dear Chess World

#112

Post by djrockstar1 »

cmeacham98 wrote: post #79
gmiller123456 wrote: post #41

I am limited in what I can say without explicit permission from Niemann What? I'd like him to explicitly state what rule/law/agreement prevents him from saying more. He explicitly accused him of cheating. I can't imagine what would prevent him from providing details.

My guess is some sort of FIDE dispute process that binds both parties to (partial) secrecy.

FIDE already put out a statement saying they know nothing about this incident and want Carlsen to put forward initial evidence for them to start an investigation. Carlsen's statement shows that he has no evidence beyond his feelings over the board and Hans' history of cheating online.

Re: Dear Chess World

#113

Post by cxr »

Victerius wrote: post #48
bombcar wrote: post #20

Dear Chess World, At the 2022 Sinquefield Cup, I made the unprecedented professional decision to withdraw from the tournament after my round three game against Hans Niemann. A week later during the Champions Chess Tour, I resigned against Hans Niemann after playing only one move. I know that my actions have frustrated many in the chess community. I'm frustrated. I want to play chess. I want to continue to play chess…

"I'm not saying Hans Niemann cheated in this very specific instance against me. I'm just saying he's a professional cheater, and that fact may or may not be related to my withdrawal in a game against him after just one move." Carlsen is all but accusing Niemann of having cheated against him. Why can't he go the extra step? Is this something his lawyers have advised him to do? (I don't have a dog in this fight)

Please don't post manufactured troll quotes.

Re: Dear Chess World

#114

Post by Invictus0 »

addicted wrote: post #78
dgritsko wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it boils more down to this: "I was uncomfortable with how he played because he has a history of cheating so I quit" Which is entirely reasonable, if you think that cheating is an "existential threat" to chess itself.

Magnus is claiming that cheating is widespread and a big problem in chess. Who are all the other cheaters that Magnus has quit against? Why is the only cheater he has publicly made a show of having a problem with in all these years the one who recently beat him OTB playing black?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_chess

Re: Dear Chess World

#115

Post by jl6 »

It’s a deeply unsatisfactory situation, because on one side we expect evidence for such a serious accusation, and on the other side we know such evidence is all but impossible to gather retrospectively.

Re: Dear Chess World

#116

Post by walrus01 »

loxs wrote: post #86

Isn't it time to just abandon chess as a competitive sport? It's (mostly) a solved game for f* sake, move on. I will probably be downvoted to oblivion, but I'm absolutely serious and would love constructive commentary. What's the big appeal of chess? We (as humans) can't beat computers. It's probably useful for further research, but I see absolutely no value in (human) competitions.

Isn't this like saying we should abandon professional road cycling as a sport, because motorcycles have been invented and exist and are a faster method of two wheeled transportation?

Or we should abandon rowing as a sport because we now have 9hp Honda outboard motors?

Re: Dear Chess World

#117

Post by djrockstar1 »

bombcar wrote: post #53
gmiller123456 wrote: post #41

I am limited in what I can say without explicit permission from Niemann What? I'd like him to explicitly state what rule/law/agreement prevents him from saying more. He explicitly accused him of cheating. I can't imagine what would prevent him from providing details.

I expect it's GDPR-covered or similar cheating examples from chess.com or whatever site it was that he saw all the list of cheaters from.

Chess.com already put out a statement saying Carlsen has not seen anything about their cheat detection or their list of known cheaters.

Re: Dear Chess World

#118

Post by MichaelCollins »

nicoburns wrote: post #96
frumper wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to say an old man cheated when he was 12 years old, it's yet another to say a 19 year old did it just a handful of years ago. He's still a kid.

My intuition is that there's evidence out there that shows he cheated more, but people grow up a lot from age 12 to 19. That time period is basically the entirety of adolescence! I don't think it's fair to pin the actions of their 12 year old self on a 19 year old.

> but people grow up a lot from age 12 to 19.

I did broadly equivalent stupid shit when I was 12, 16, 19... I don't think I mellowed out until I was 25-30. 19 is young, 19 year olds are generally still in their peak stupid teenager years. Crime stats back this up: https://pinkerton.com/our-insights/blog/age-crime-curve

Re: Dear Chess World

#119

Post by ouid »

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #43
vikingerik wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The somewhat-concrete evidence is that analyzers have now found many instances where Niemann's moves correlate highly with engine-suggested moves. I don't know the details as to whether that claim is credible. Is this correlation really any more for Niemann than any other grandmaster of similar strength? Are the analyzers cherry-picking data points that fit the narrative? And of course it is possible that Niemann is…

There is a guy named Ken Regan who is one of the leading experts in this question of whether the correlation with engine moves is at a normal or abnormal level. His statement is that he analyzed the last two years of Hans' games and found no evidence of cheating. So, yeah, the people on Reddit are probably cherry picking. ( https://en.chessbase.com/post/is-hans-niemann-cheating-world... ) The counter to that is that…

having a history of cheating in a game that is mostly otherwise honor bound is a very very very bad sign. Don't be fooled by the "when he was younger" bit. Everything that you did you did when you were younger, it has been less time since hans was last caught cheating than the interval between that time and the previous one.

Don't let the statisticians convince you that they know what they're doing either. Statistics, as a discipline, is essentially predicated on the principle that the objects of study do not know that they are being observed. Without this assumption, the domain is now more accurately described as game theory. Statisticians will happily and confidently ignore this and draw very wrong conclusions as a result.

Re: Dear Chess World

#120

Post by chordalkeyboard »

bergenty wrote: post #108
bombcar wrote: post #20

Dear Chess World, At the 2022 Sinquefield Cup, I made the unprecedented professional decision to withdraw from the tournament after my round three game against Hans Niemann. A week later during the Champions Chess Tour, I resigned against Hans Niemann after playing only one move. I know that my actions have frustrated many in the chess community. I'm frustrated. I want to play chess. I want to continue to play chess…

I don’t like this. You can’t just imply someone is cheating without proof or some indication of proof. I understand we need to crack down on cheating but this is not the way.

Magnus doesn't imply Niemann is cheating. He states his own belief that Niemann is cheating, and explains why he believes that to be the case.
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