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Adversarial Collaboration

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Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#111

Post by gampleman »

At least in religion I think the idea that reasons follow belief rather than precede it is quite acknowledged. I think that's part of what in Christianity it meant when it says that faith is a gift of God. In my own conversion I felt it very intensely - my belief came over me in a sudden, external (or miraculous) way. I then spent 6 months learning everything there was to learn about my new found faith to placate my reason that I hadn't simply gone mad, but the temporal flow was clearly belief -> reason rather than the reverse.

In some ways it's like falling in love. Most of us don't evaluate potential partner on a bunch of metrics and then after they reach a sufficiently high ranking we declare ourselves in love. Rather we fall in love instinctively, then evaluate the person rationally (and sometimes reject them, like when the circumstances aren't right or we can see their flaws even through the rose tinted glasses, etc.)

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#112

Post by hef19898 »

WalterBright wrote: post #62
bigmatto wrote: post #3

One of the most disappointing things that I have learned is that most people hold opinions in order to be part of some group. If someone is a member of a group, it is almost not worth listening to their arguments, especially arguments in support of views held strongly by that group. They are arguing in order to maintain their group membership, not to find the truth. It appears this is true of academic and scientific…

Join us, the non-conformists!

"You are all individuals"

"We are all individuals"

"I am not!"

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#113

Post by AstralStorm »

christophilus wrote: post #23
agumonkey wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And if someone knows books or discussions about this topic I want the names. Its such a strong force in social structures. Stating your truth is rarely possible, you better sing along and talk down in smaller sub groups later.

Read anything Charlie Munger writes on the topic. He said something to the effect of “A year in which you fail to kill at least one of your cherished ideas is probably a failed year.” Anyway, he has a lot to say on the subject and on incentives and human psychology broadly.

Nice platitude, but sometimes cherished ideas are actually true.

A better way to phrase it would be a year when you don't challenge your idea is probably a failed year. It might still win the challenge.

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#114

Post by mach1ne »

littlestymaar wrote: post #105
mach1ne wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether the origin of social justice in universities comes from students or the faculty is irrelative. Fact is that elite universities in the US stand strongly for social justice, and expressing those values in your essay and interview does increase your chances of admission - especially in comparison to expressing contrary values. Thus, if your only goal is to get in, you are better off emulating the values the univ…

Only if they really “stand strongly” and give higher scores to such views and it's not just marketing. If they advertise about social justice, but the admission process is in fact pretty conservatives, this posture will not have a dramatic effect. But anyway, even if this is true, that doesn't mean that it's the current Elite's views, just likely to be the future Elite's views (assuming that higher education pays a s…

I think the only thing where we differ is that I consider elite university faculty (and the institution as a whole) to be part of the elite and you don't. I'm not saying either is correct, it's just where you draw the line.

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#115

Post by AstralStorm »

leaflets2 wrote: post #84
jasonzemos wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound so simple. Becoming a group member in this context means corrupting oneself. You are what you do. You are the last action you take. If you deceive the other externally while holding different positions internally, you are those external positions, and the internal is the deception. Those that lie to themselves this way have nothing to offer the group and will certainly never "make a change from the…

More books for you :-) Never Split the Difference. And Nonviolent Communication. Because just listening to others, and showing that you care about and understand what they're saying, can go a long way. Not always a need to actually do anything in the real world (or to say or pretend that you agree). Maybe theoretically this won't place you in their old group, still, you'll a bit form a new group where you and that ot…

Or you become a traitor to everyone and are rewarded as one deserves.

These tactics are just that, they are not strategies. They are not long term successful or sustainable.

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#116

Post by ZeroGravitas »

astrange wrote: post #96
Jensson wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But “social justice” is definitely not a foundational belief of the elite The selection committees at universities certainly believes in social justice or they wouldn't consider race so heavily for admissions.

It’s mostly an excuse to accept fewer Asians, just as personality and interviews used to be one to not accept Jews.

So they care about social justice, which is bad, and they are only pretending to care about social justice, which is bad, and they use it as cover to do the opposite of social justice, which is also bad.

So, higher education is definately bad, and whether social justice is bad or not depends on whether you open the box and find out if the cat is a Republican or a Democrat?

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#117

Post by ZeroGravitas »

Swizec wrote: post #73
lostcolony wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So was "abolition". You can decide you -disagree- with the ideas of 'social justice', or the implementation, or whatever, but I think you'll need a stronger case than "it's political" to warrant the dismissal of an educational institution trying to incorporate the term.

The problem with wokeism is that it’s more like a religion than an effective movement for change. Being seen to believe/say the right things is vastly more important than actively helping. Woke Racism is a really good book about that. Don’t worry it’s written by a black guy who’s been fighting for social justice for decades. The fact I have to say that is one of his points/arguments.

The author thinks 'the hard left' think Universities are racist, and they are wrong to think that.

Then he wrote a book called "Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America".

So, they were right after all?

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#118

Post by dale_glass »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #116
astrange wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s mostly an excuse to accept fewer Asians, just as personality and interviews used to be one to not accept Jews.

So they care about social justice, which is bad, and they are only pretending to care about social justice, which is bad, and they use it as cover to do the opposite of social justice, which is also bad. So, higher education is definately bad, and whether social justice is bad or not depends on whether you open the box and find out if the cat is a Republican or a Democrat?

> So they care about social justice, which is bad, and they are only pretending to care about social justice, which is bad

That's P ^ !P, which is a contradiction. Your reading doesn't make any sense.

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#119

Post by comfypotato »

jiggawatts wrote: post #50
Cd00d wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most important thing I learned from my graduate advisor: anyone can have a worthwhile idea. I watched him for years coming into weekly colloquia and seeming to tune out reading papers. But, occasionally there would be a speaker that was less than credible, and you could feel the entire hall close off. But, my advisor would hear a tidbit of a good idea (even amongst loads of bunk), and look up from his journals an…

My hobby is to look for a physics theory of everything (ToE). I have virtually no chance at succeeding at this, but it's fun reading through random junk on ArXiV. I noticed something similar: You can find papers by clearly crazy people that have nuggets of good ideas in them. Odd bits of mathematics they reference might be an interesting rabbithole to go down, even if it ultimately leads nowhere. The whole thing remi…

I got a good laugh from your comment here. Imagine it from my perspective. Someone (you) is suggesting they search for a ToE in their spare time, and they’re labeling someone else as clearly crazy.

;)

All in good fun. I greatly enjoy the sentiment of your comment and it’s parent that great ideas can come from anywhere. At the risk of creating a segue into controversial topics, I think this plays a huge part of why it’s important that a team of programmers be made up of folks with different backgrounds. I am so often caught completely off guard by how different a valid idea is than mine. “I totally never would have thought of that.”

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#120

Post by otikik »

I believe this all boils down to mental energy an efficiency.

Our brains are great at pattern matching. We want to look at the landscape, see that there’s no hiding lion, and continue hunting-gathering. Constantly rechecking that there’s no lion is draining, and it also leads to less hunting-gathering. Adult humans really dislike having to do that (we even consider it a sign of mental illness)

The “back and forth” between husband and wife supports this theory. Every time one of them designed one experiment, “the ball was on somebody else’s field” and they could temporarily forget about the problem until the results came back. I am sure they were two very busy individuals and being able to “move on to other things” after designing the next experiment was gratifying.

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