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Tradition is Smarter (2018)

scholars-stage.org

111–120 of 174 posts

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well and good. the issue I have is that when no one can be found that knows anything about why it was put there in the first place. every day I have to climb over that damn fence to get groceries. at what point do we tear it down to see what happens? in software, I would rather tear it down and find out what it was there for. most developers I've worked with in the past couple decades operate in an atmosphere of cons…

The recourse when nobody can be found who knows or remembers why the fence is there, is to figure it out based on first principles. It's fine to do "tear it down and see what happens" as a consciously chosen trade-off for expediency. But in my experience people often act like there's just no way of knowing if you can't find someone to ask, and that's very rarely the case.

So true.

"What do you mean add in logging and watch it over several months?!?!?! I'll have to climb the fence for several more months, that's not acceptable!".

ok...

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, ironically enough, male circumcision is the perfect example of something that was done for "traditional" religious reasons, but for which now there is ample medical support for it. For example, circumcision is extremely common in the US, despite the fact that it is relatively very rare for it to be done for religious reasons (only about 2-3% of the US population is Muslim or Jewish). It is done because the me…

The biggest misconception about traditions is that people just randomly decided to do it and punish those who don't follow. The most probable case is that traditions, such as male circumcision were done for a particular purpose and ritualised into a traditional to share and continue that process. It's only in more modern ages where we said that rituals aren't enough and we need to think of medical reasons for it as w…

Think of it like ML at the human level.

ML's entire thing is statistical correlations that aren't obvious.

Tradition is probably operating like that as well. Is all tradition like this and useful? Of course not. But I bet a lot of it is very subtle and nuanced.

It's also worth considering that there are other pressures. For example, women typically find circumstanced penises more appealing. It's very possible that pressure, coupled with the benefits, helped society land on it more than not.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#113
post #82

Coincidentally I had debates recently about traditions. In particular about Monarchies. While traditions can be there for reasons and it's OK to follow some traditions, all traditions should be questioned. The amount of knowledge we have today is not comparable with what we had in any previous time in history. The article actually proves that. We now know about chronic cyanide poisoning to a level that was unknown ev…

> In short the Monarchy serve no real purpose in modern societies. Even as a symbol, it's a very bad symbol. TBH I'm sort of baffled by this stance given the events around Queen Elizabeth II's passing. To be clear, I'm not a monarchist, and I share the opinion that their continuation in modern society is, well, weird, to say the least. A modern constitutional monarch holds no real power, and often times holds less po…

There's three layers to the power the British monarch has:

1. They wield huge amounts of power. They can kill laws by withholding royal assent, they can dismiss Parliament, they can appoint the Prime Minister, and they can do anything else within the royal prerogative. They are sovereign.

2. They wield little power. They only act within the bounds of tradition, and on the advice of a Prime Minister selected by the House of Commons. The last one who tried to press the matter ended up shorter by a head.

3. They wield power incommensurate with the United Kingdom being a polity run by a responsible government. They're immensely wealthy, they have the ear of every politician in the United Kingdom and beyond, and they generally wield soft power far beyond what an unelected position ought to have.

Everyone here knows 1 is wrong, although I have met some silly buggers... Pretending we're at 2 when most people realize the import of 3 is similarly not going to work.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#114
post #72
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not equivalent in most cases (not all female genital mutilation is performed the same way and I cannot fathom a medical reason for any sort). But that doesn't mean they aren't in the same general category when defined as surgical alterations of people's genitalia performed for religious or cultural reasons without any medical necessity. A medically required circumcision when reasoned and self-chosen is an alt…

It's horrifying that these are even compared. The foreskin is just some skin and absolutely not required to experience sexual pleasure or climax. But for women, they cut their clitoris out , fundamentally altering their ability to have sex forever. You cannot compare this. There is no equivalence here. IMO, female genital mutilation is comparable to male gelding --- removal of the entire penis. Both are designed to r…

circumcised males experience less intense orgasm and sexual sensitivity.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#115
post #15

Chesterson's fence is about understanding: tradition may be smarter than you, maybe not, but it would serve well to understand the reasons why it's a tradition before disposing with it.

Except few people ask why. And, that's frustrating.

It reminds me one of my daughter's science shows. In an experiment, they hire an actor to repeat a nonsensical ritual in a waiting room. When new people come in, without being asked, they copy the ritual. The ritual continues indefinitely well after the actor leaves the room.

In another experiment (I think referenced by Sapolsky), an animal (primate) watches a human perform a ritual that produces a reward (treat). When the animal is given the same challenge, they dispose of all of the ritualistic steps and only do the relevant steps. But, when a young Human watches, they will repeat the entire ritual.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#116
post #115
post #15

Chesterson's fence is about understanding: tradition may be smarter than you, maybe not, but it would serve well to understand the reasons why it's a tradition before disposing with it.

Except few people ask why. And, that's frustrating. It reminds me one of my daughter's science shows. In an experiment, they hire an actor to repeat a nonsensical ritual in a waiting room. When new people come in, without being asked, they copy the ritual. The ritual continues indefinitely well after the actor leaves the room. In another experiment (I think referenced by Sapolsky), an animal (primate) watches a human…

Interesting. Presumably over time the evolutionary selection of rituals the article talks about would weed out the ones that are useless though.

I wonder if the act of closely following a ritual even if we do not know its purpose is a form of human meta-ritual? That makes it easier to learn from previous generations without having to understand the potentially harsh lessons that lead to the creation of the ritual in the first place?

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#117
post #115
post #15

Chesterson's fence is about understanding: tradition may be smarter than you, maybe not, but it would serve well to understand the reasons why it's a tradition before disposing with it.

Except few people ask why. And, that's frustrating. It reminds me one of my daughter's science shows. In an experiment, they hire an actor to repeat a nonsensical ritual in a waiting room. When new people come in, without being asked, they copy the ritual. The ritual continues indefinitely well after the actor leaves the room. In another experiment (I think referenced by Sapolsky), an animal (primate) watches a human…

[deleted]

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#118
post #15

Chesterson's fence is about understanding: tradition may be smarter than you, maybe not, but it would serve well to understand the reasons why it's a tradition before disposing with it.

well and good. the issue I have is that when no one can be found that knows anything about why it was put there in the first place. every day I have to climb over that damn fence to get groceries. at what point do we tear it down to see what happens? in software, I would rather tear it down and find out what it was there for. most developers I've worked with in the past couple decades operate in an atmosphere of cons…

> at what point do we tear it down to see what happens?

Without knowing the purpose of something, we cannot know the cost of removing it.

A few weeks someone commented to me on how they thought that some chain link fencing along a railing should be removed because it was unsightly, until they saw a toddler playing near the railing and realized that the toddler could easily squeeze through if the chain link fencing wasn't there. If they never saw the toddler, they would have thought the fencing pointless. If the people they asked failed to think of the size or behaviour of toddlers, their conclusion would remain unchanged. Yet, had that chain link fencing been removed, the results have been tragic. Because of the nature of my work, I can think of many other circumstances where safety measures have been put into place where only a few people would understand their purpose. In most cases the reason is less obvious than that bit of fencing. Unfortunately, few of them have the element where someone realizes the purpose out of chance before the damage was done.

Much the same can be said of software. It may seem like it is fine to pull out a piece of code, test it outside of a production environment, and give it the okay when everything works. Yet it may not be fine. That code may have been inserted to deal with a problem that client X was having to deal with one of their requirements or to deal with a peculiarity of their production environment. Because it is particular to a particular client, the development team may not know of it (e.g. the developer who did the work is long gone) or it may have simply been forgotten. Just because the purpose is unknown in the present doesn't mean that removing it is devoid of consequence. Those consequences may range from impacting their procedures, to financial loss, to safety.

At the end of the day, you need to understand why something exists to determine if it is still relevant. It should be removed only once you know that it is no longer relevant.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#119
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short the Monarchy serve no real purpose in modern societies. Even as a symbol, it's a very bad symbol. TBH I'm sort of baffled by this stance given the events around Queen Elizabeth II's passing. To be clear, I'm not a monarchist, and I share the opinion that their continuation in modern society is, well, weird, to say the least. A modern constitutional monarch holds no real power, and often times holds less po…

> A modern constitutional monarch holds no real power This is not the case. The monarchy is extremely wealthy, and a large landowner over what should be public land. Powerwise, the queen had plenty of involvement in a coup in Australia.

I assume you are talking about the dismissal of Prime Minister Gough Whitlam?

The Queen's involvement seems to have been little or none. They is some suggestion that her advisors might have know that the Govenor General was contemplating it, but not much beyond that.

Certainly she wasn't pulling this strings behind it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional...

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#120
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short the Monarchy serve no real purpose in modern societies. Even as a symbol, it's a very bad symbol. TBH I'm sort of baffled by this stance given the events around Queen Elizabeth II's passing. To be clear, I'm not a monarchist, and I share the opinion that their continuation in modern society is, well, weird, to say the least. A modern constitutional monarch holds no real power, and often times holds less po…

> A modern constitutional monarch holds no real power This is not the case. The monarchy is extremely wealthy, and a large landowner over what should be public land. Powerwise, the queen had plenty of involvement in a coup in Australia.

> and a large landowner over what should be public land.

That's really true in name only. I have about as much power over "Crown Lands" as the monarch does. Even when it comes to the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall, these are essentially perpetual trusts used to pay the monarch and his/her heir for their jobs and maintenance of their offices.

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