Address by the President of the Russian Federation • Hacker News Board

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#111

Post by mnsc » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 6:48 AM UTC

theironhammer wrote: post #45

ajl666 wrote: post #29

It's sad to see how easily westerners are mislead by our own leaders, who ape Soviet contempt for constituents and maliciously ignore voter inputs. You should at least make an effort to see things from the Russian point of view. To say there's nothing valid in the Russian state's actions, is really idiotic. 1) Are post WW2 borders sacred? 2) The dissolution of the USSR was chaotic, unnegotiated, and basically due to…

Excellent post. Thank-you for this. And to anyone who thinks taking the Russian point of view means you are Russian shill please view some John Meersheimer on YouTube. He also references prominent and respected IR American scholars who criticize American policy towards post Soviet Russia. It's been a disastrous mess. And now we face possible nuclear war because of arrogance.

One big difference with living in the west is that I can read your post, and the GP. I can "take in the truth" and I can (and do) go further and read other, more credible sources and come to the conclusion that the worlds history is not black and white. The US is certainly not an innocent player. And then I can read Putin's own words and I can read Dugin and come to the conclusion that Russia is 100% at fault for the current situation in Ukraine. I might be wrong in this judgement, but at least I won't go to jail for expressing it.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#112

Post by trasz » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 6:49 AM UTC

topspin wrote: post #109

trasz wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Iran is flying in large quantities of drones that will expose Ukraine's forces to effective Russian artillery. Not really, Russia doesn’t have precision guided munitions. Ukraine - or NATO - is at least decade ahead technologically, maybe two.

> Not really, Russia doesn’t have precision guided... Russia has ample artillery. While they're blind it isn't very effective. Drones correct that deficiency, which is why Russian drones are a serious threat.

Drones make it possible to aim. Russians don’t have anything to aim - they can cover an area with artillery, but for that you don’t need a drone.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#113

Post by Garvi » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 7:00 AM UTC

The_Stone wrote: post #106

Garvi wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully intentional. As well as not mentioning the name of the prominent Hollywood director. If you're too afraid to google it, the 1984 comments in this thread bashing Russia will create their own gravity well from the irony displayed. Am a EU citizen, a communicologist and programmer.

If it's censored so effectively, how do you expect people to find it via googling based on vague allusions? If you believe this is so important, why be so vague in the first place? This is not how speaking in good faith looks.

How else am I to demonstrate that the information has been removed clean from the internet? If that makes me a bad actor in your opinion, in my opinion you have your reasoning screwed up somewhere, because I'm not following that logic at all. Please refrain from such redditish personal attacks. If you want to aggravate me, disprove my points. Unfortunately I'd more likely thank you than being mad in that case. If you're actually into making people mad, you should stick to reddit.

I don't think there's a single person on this forum that's not an ace at googling. So I take it you didn't google it for other reasons. Which is also a point I'm making and has been additionally explained in the post you're replying to.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#114

Post by Garvi » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 7:27 AM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #85

Garvi wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's actually amazing to witness is an A-list Hollywood director making a documentary on the CIA financing of neo-nazi groups inside Ukraine and their involvement in the killing of Donbass civillians in the civil war now raging for over 8 years and being censored so effectively, few US citizen seem to know about it. Another fact I find amazing is the maidan revolution being televised for weeks across the globe on a…

Again though, Zelenskiy's government isn't the post-Maidan government. It's not 2014 any more...

True. He ran for office on the promise to stop the civil war in the east and enact the Minsk agreement. Instead the shelling intensified.

What's sad is up to two months ago there were UN observers in the area, publishing all their observations daily in an open public online database. If one so chooses, one can read up on the intensified shelling of the Donbass regions leading up to Russias intervention. Took me seconds to find the first time. Up to 1000 artillery explosions per day counted by international observers and published online. Go on. We're in the information age, with all that information available to us, yet no one seems to know anything concrete or where to find it. Why is that?

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#115

Post by topspin » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 7:59 AM UTC

trasz wrote: post #112

topspin wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not really, Russia doesn’t have precision guided... Russia has ample artillery. While they're blind it isn't very effective. Drones correct that deficiency, which is why Russian drones are a serious threat.

Drones make it possible to aim. Russians don’t have anything to aim - they can cover an area with artillery, but for that you don’t need a drone.

> they can cover an area with artillery, but for that you don’t need a drone

This is badly incorrect. You have fantastical ideas about how artillery works. Perhaps you've seen images of a few cratered wheat fields and figure that is Russian SOP and goes on 24x7. It doesn't. Those are major operations that require a lot of costly preparation and time. Russia can't afford to do it on a whim, firing whilly nilly at phantoms. No one can.

Fire must be directed. Otherwise you're just making noise.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#116

Post by alkonaut » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 8:39 AM UTC

theironhammer wrote: post #104

alkonaut wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What activities are that? And was it these activities that made it possible to completely ignore international laws on territorial integrity and warrant and invade Ukraine outright? No. All this “but USA!”, “but NATO!”, “but the Nazis!” whataboutism is complete nonsense. It doesn’t even begin to explain one country invading a neighbor with 125k men, leveling entire cities and killing thousands of civilians. Even maki…

1993 Ukraine joined a cooperative organization that effectively made them a defacto NATO member. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/07/27/US-and-Ukraine-sign-... 2013 Viktoria Nuland orchestrated a coup to oust Yanukovych because he changed his mind at signing an economic agreement with EU and signed one with Russia instead. A pro Western leader was put in place. https://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/23/neocons-and-the-u…

> a coup to oust Yanukovych because he changed his mind at signing an economic agreement with EU and signed one with Russia instead.

Does a coup in a foreign country form a valid pretext for invasion you mean?

> Since 2014 NATO has been training Ukrainian forces.

Yes. Are you trying to argue that this forms a reasonable pretext for invading a neighboring country? Or how else is it relevant?

> it's ok for Ukraine to become a member of NATO?

Of course. It's their choice as a sovereign state to have any alliance with anyone.

It seems you are enumerating a number of things that Russia disagreed with or that was even outright hostile or Anti-russian. But that doesn't form a pretext for invasion does it?

> Cuba was not allowed to have Soviet missiles

Accoring to who? The US? Ukraine? The soviet union? Nato? No. It was the US that considered this unacceptable. And the Soviet Union considered the placement of MRBMs in Turkey unacceptable. So you might argue the US "started" that. But a key fact in that story is of course that the drama ended with both countries withdrawing those missiles, luckily (The US from Turkey, and The USSR from Cuba).

The US certainly hasn't always behaved will in international relations. But don't try to make this a whataboutism discussion about "NATO is the US and the US did X so no one can point fingers at russia for doing similar thing Y".

Ukraine isn't in NATO any more than Austria is, and Ukraine takes no responsibility for past US or NATO actions. Ukraine is a sovereign country that has a right to territorial integrity. Did Cuba have that as well? Yes!

If Ukraine feels it needs a military alliance, that's their choice. If Russia fels that the threat of a big military alliance on their doorstep is too much, then they are of course entitled to build up defenses on their borders. This would create tensions, and those tensions could need addressing.

But the bottom line is: if a country invades another country, the case is pretty clear cut. It doesn't matter whether someone else made the same error. It's wrong and must be condemned. There is no valid pretext for this invasion.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#117

Post by stunt » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 9:21 AM UTC

People on both sides of this debate are exploited by the war propaganda that both sides push.

It doesn't matter which side you stand on today, if you think the solution to this problem is war instead of negotiation and peace, you are being abused by everything you read and hear.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#118

Post by koplt » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 10:46 AM UTC

iostream25 wrote: post #4

My general sense is that not even Putin believes his own rhetoric, such is his inconsistency of thought. The reality is that Putin has elected to invade a sovereign neighbor country and can unelect to do so. Not one "western" leader, military or civilian, has threatened Russia "existentially" and certainly no one has threatened to invade Russia. Putin is a liar, to put it simply. He's apparently playing the crazy-car…

No post body was provided.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#119

Post by trasz » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 11:18 AM UTC

topspin wrote: post #115

trasz wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drones make it possible to aim. Russians don’t have anything to aim - they can cover an area with artillery, but for that you don’t need a drone.

> they can cover an area with artillery, but for that you don’t need a drone This is badly incorrect. You have fantastical ideas about how artillery works. Perhaps you've seen images of a few cratered wheat fields and figure that is Russian SOP and goes on 24x7. It doesn't. Those are major operations that require a lot of costly preparation and time. Russia can't afford to do it on a whim, firing whilly nilly at phan…

We are talking about old, worn out guns firing ammunition way past its expiration date. What you are describing would have worked six months ago — and even then wouldn’t be comparable to what Ukraine is doing, simply because you need an order of magnitude more shots to make up for the lack of guided munitions.

Also, what Russia is doing is mostly making noise. That’s why their offensive over the past couple of months was so hilariously slow. That’s also why they level entire cities instead of specific military targets.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#120

Post by bartimus » Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 1:14 PM UTC

Garvi wrote: post #36

Mikeb85 wrote: post #5

All the doublespeak is actually pretty amazing to witness... We're defending Russia but also "liberated" Kherson and Zaporizhzhia... The west is threatening us with nuclear weapons... The regime which came into power in 2014 (nevermind that Poroshenko and that whole group were voted out in a democratic election where Zelenskiy and his party, who were notably more friendly to Russia at first, came to power)...

What's actually amazing to witness is an A-list Hollywood director making a documentary on the CIA financing of neo-nazi groups inside Ukraine and their involvement in the killing of Donbass civillians in the civil war now raging for over 8 years and being censored so effectively, few US citizen seem to know about it. Another fact I find amazing is the maidan revolution being televised for weeks across the globe on a…

I hope you're not talking about that propaganda piece from Oliver Stone? One time I spoke with a dog. It told me humans are pretty low level for not understanding the importance chasing balls.