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Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

reuters.com

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Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#111

Post by eivarv »

int_19h wrote: post #110

There's a curious comment on that article from a person in support of that retention law: "Google can do that [blanket data collection], my Chinese mobile phone manufacturer too, why shouldn't the government be able to do it?" Something to ponder when we talk about data collection by private parties: like it or not, it does provide justification for governments doing the same.

No, it does not – for two reasons:

  - Two wrongs don't make a right: Someone behaving unethical does not excuse unethical behavior from someone else.
  - There is a difference in the power dynamics of the relationships: Consumer and service provider VS citizen and state.
If anything, laws and right should be strengthened to explicitly ban this behavior.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#112

Post by ghiculescu »

int_19h wrote: post #110

There's a curious comment on that article from a person in support of that retention law: "Google can do that [blanket data collection], my Chinese mobile phone manufacturer too, why shouldn't the government be able to do it?" Something to ponder when we talk about data collection by private parties: like it or not, it does provide justification for governments doing the same.

You can opt out of using Google or buying Chinese phones more easily than you can opt out of being German. Governments have more unchecked power and should be held to a higher standard accordingly.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#113

Post by novok »

int_19h wrote: post #110

There's a curious comment on that article from a person in support of that retention law: "Google can do that [blanket data collection], my Chinese mobile phone manufacturer too, why shouldn't the government be able to do it?" Something to ponder when we talk about data collection by private parties: like it or not, it does provide justification for governments doing the same.

Google and others are also not allowed to do blanket data collection by law, they are restricted in how and who's data they can collect with stuff like the GDPR.

You can debate how effective it is, but they are not allowed to do it, and nobody should be allowed to either.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#114

Post by eivarv »

therealmarv wrote: post #108

hold on, what Germany wanted to do (blanket data retention) is a reality for a long time in other states in EU. There are many countries collecting for 6+ months all connection data (e.g. France or Spain). A map is in this German article from 2019 https://netzpolitik.org/2019/vorratsdatenspeicherung-in-euro... So this becomes illegal in other EU member states now too? Does anybody have any inside how this will change…

It has been illegal at least since the Grand Chamber judgments on the cases of "Big Brother Watch" and "Centrum för Rättvisa" last year [0]. Though, really, the outcome was fairly predictable for anyone following the field.

TLDR; Continuous "General and indiscriminate retention" is not compatible with EU fundamental rights.

[0]: https://europeanlawblog.eu/2021/06/08/big-brother-watch-and-...

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#115

Post by pgorczak »

Semaphor wrote: post #3

Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm

The process makes sense from a separation of powers perspective. When there’s an especially fine line between what legislative wants and (constitutional) judicative allows, there has to be some rejections.

This is probably one of the cases where lawmakers feel some spite about constitutional courts exerting too much influence over their work. It would be easier if they’d just talk about it before going through the whole process but I guess creating frustration is part of the point here.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#116

Post by radicaldreamer »

karatinversion wrote: post #57
nonethewiser wrote: post #54

Is Germany a sovereign country if an international court presides over them? This tends to get brushed aside by people defending the EU. Isn't this a step in the direction of the EU becoming something like the United States? There tends to be a lot of double-speak on this: "That's not true" and "it's a good thing" at the same time.

It is not. The whole point of the EU is to pool sovereignty for common benefit. Germany is constrained in things it can do: it cannot ban the importing of French wine, give huge subsidies to its domestic steel industry to gain market share in Europe, or stop Bulgarians entering the country. Of course, there is no EU army enforcing EU law, so a sufficiently damn-the-consequences German government could do these things…

The EU's stick is financial

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#117

Post by sveme »

Longhanks wrote: post #22
chippiewill wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Member states are sovereign insofar as the EU institutions only have jurisdiction because the member states allow them to do so. EU law only applies because local law says it applies. The ECJ is the highest court in any of the member countries because the law in those countries say it is. This differs from the situation in the US where Texas couldn't pass an amendment to their state constitution declaring that they a…

Couldn’t Texas exit the US in the same way that European countries can exit the EU?

Out of curiosity: can Swiss cantons leave the Swiss confederation?

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#119

Post by sveme »

Longhanks wrote: post #49
jltsiren wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As the German politician Martin Scholz once said, if the EU were to apply for an EU membership, it would get declined because of a lack of a democratic foundation. That's the way it should be. In a democratic state, the state itself is sovereign, while the citizens are not. The rights of the citizens depend on the constitution, which can be changed according to a democratic process. The EU is a union of sovereign s…

Well, since I live in Switzerland, I am happy to disagree. Swiss people vote on many things multiple times per year and consider this a fundamental right and this the way it should be.

The difference is between direct and representative democracy, not of democracy itself.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#120

Post by IntrepidWorm »

anony999 wrote: post #30
Longhanks wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn’t Texas exit the US in the same way that European countries can exit the EU?

Technically the answer is yes. In practice I believe there would be civil war before that happens.

If the threat of secession requires going to war over, it would seem that no, secession is not a legally supported process.
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