Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch • Hacker News Board

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#111

Post by bluejekyll » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #81

superchroma wrote: post #20

I can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) makes authentic loud V8 noises, but they're definitely both stupid. Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?

> EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) To be fair, the Charger name was created long before it meant "thing you use to plug into an electric device", and the Charger is a very popular vehicle in the Dodge lineup. And you don't abandon popular models without generating negative PR. So Dodge didn't really have a choice. Plus, they can use the pun in witty commercials.

They killed the Charger brand in 1987, then reintroduced it in 2006.

Fast cars are dangerous on our streets and responsible for a significant number of deaths on the road. It wouldn’t be bad if they killed the brand for society.

It’s too bad that “car that gets you great mileage and helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks” doesn’t sell.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#112

Post by YorickPeterse » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #46

superchroma wrote: post #20

I can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) makes authentic loud V8 noises, but they're definitely both stupid. Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?

> Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road? Getting rid of 50% of your car detecting senses doesn't seem like a good idea

This is only a problem when there are other loud vehicles around. If all vehicles are more quiet, you'll still be able to hear them, it just won't be as loud as it is today.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#113

Post by Salgat » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

For some context, the first Tesla Roadster also had a transmission, but Tesla quickly realized that it's far better to simply scale up the motor so that the torque curve is high enough at higher RPMs, electronically cap the torque at low RPM, and remove the transmission altogether. Considering transmissions are one of the most expensive and common major parts to repair in a vehicle, it is astounding that anyone would try to bring it back.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#114

Post by falcolas » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 4:14 PM UTC

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #105

falcolas wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and I’d go so far to say you don’t want all the torque on anything but a clean racetrack. Rain, oil, gravel, animal carcasses… there’s plenty of road conditions where a lead foot plus extreme torque will carry you violently off the road.

And it might be a good trade-off to pair a motor with a peaky torque curve with a 2-speed or 3-speed gearbox. But if your _only_ goal is to limit torque, you could simulate that by re-mapping the pedal. Say, by hitting "Eco" mode on a Prius.

My comment is more about why torque should be limitable, not a critique on electric cars.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#115

Post by drewg123 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 4:15 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #98

yywwbbn wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to imagine it would take significantly more than 15 minutes for most people to ‘learn’ how to drive an automatic car even if they only drove a manual before.

Muscle memory is a bitch. Two things I’ve done going from a manual to an automatic, sometimes a year after: Slam on the brake as if you’re using the clutch. Automatic brake pedals are more than wide enough to accommodate two feet, and attempting to upshift and slamming on the brake instead can really rattle your brain bucket. Throw the automatic into park. Less of an issue these days, but it used to attempt to actual…

Moving from manual to power brakes is also a recipe for slamming on the brakes..

In high school, I drove a really old car with manual everything (including brakes). Our drivers ed class was taught on 80s american sedans, with overboosted power steering and brakes where you could probably just touch them with a single toe to stop. Coming from the manual brakes in my car where I needed to stand on them to stop, I'd inadvertently slam on the brakes early in my turn at the wheel and throw everyone against the seatbelt tensioners..

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#116

Post by ReactiveJelly » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 4:15 PM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #5

nottorp wrote: post #3

Funny that it's coming from the same Toyota that puts CVTs with no discrete gear steps in their gas cars and doesn't try to hide it...

Why would you expect them to hide it? It works great. I think the CVVT text was included right under the model name on my Toyota too.

I thought that some early CVT cars hid it by having the ECU fake small shifts

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#117

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

spellboots wrote: post #80

gpt5 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter argument is that European vehicles are vastly using manual gear, despite the fact that except for a small minority, no one cares about the potential difference in torque. There is just a lot of people that are used the a certain solution and are resistant to change.

There are economic and regulatory factors involved, it is more complex than people being resistant to change which no doubt makes up part of it. In the UK, for example, automatic cars are more expensive to buy and insure [1]. They also tend to be more expensive to learn how to drive as instructors mostly have manual cars to teach with. This incentivises new drivers towards manual cars, especially as younger drivers a…

[deleted]

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#118

Post by dragontamer » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

I have to imagine that a smaller torqueband but more gears would make for a more efficient electric vehicle.

The torque from 1000lbs of Li-ion cannot be denied, but are there other options here? Less torque, fewer batteries, less range but still the acceptable acceleration and cruising speeds?

The high end Porches Tycan proved that two gears is a good design, even at the highest end of performance, for example. Lower performance vehicles probably have more opportunity to use gears?

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#119

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

Salgat wrote: post #113

For some context, the first Tesla Roadster also had a transmission, but Tesla quickly realized that it's far better to simply scale up the motor so that the torque curve is high enough at higher RPMs, electronically cap the torque at low RPM, and remove the transmission altogether. Considering transmissions are one of the most expensive and common major parts to repair in a vehicle, it is astounding that anyone would…

You're assuming in your argument that scaling up the motor is somehow free and that's why the cost of a transmission is stupid. Well it's not free, that's why transmissions exist.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#120

Post by bl_valance » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

I'm the target audience for this. I know it makes no sense, to make the car slower "shifting" through the gears, but for many of us it's the feel of full control over the car's mechanics. It's similar to the appeal of motorcycles, we ride them because every body input you make matters to the control of it. With all this said, there will still be a market for ICE manual cars for many years to come, it'll sure become more expensive to own one but I guess that'll be the price we'll have to pay. I also don't think the desire to continue driving manual will die off, anecdotally, I was talking to my 10-year old nephew and he seemed enamored with the idea of driving manual especially interested in early 2000s JDM cars, this was a really shock to me tbh I would of never thought this will be relevant with today's youth.