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I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

rasbora.dev

111–120 of 244 posts

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#111
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A private company should not be making decisions on essentially freedom of speech On the other hand, a private company has limited obligation to uphold what is essentially a government concern ... Unless we start redefining a lot of things related to private obligation.

This particular private company wants to get out of being forced into a role of content moderator for a fifth of the Internet. This is an infinite time sink with no good outcomes for them. More importantly, this seems to have no good outcomes for us, the viewers. I also don't want Twitter mobs and DDoS-ers to have a say in what I can and can't read.

> I also don't want Twitter mobs and DDoS-ers to have a say in what I can and can't read.

This is honestly what I find the most disturbing about the entire story.

This "keffals" person -- an individual! -- managed to organise enough attention to make all of this happen. From what I understand the argument is based on a threat towards this person, but considering the (public) information they were gathering on them (From what I recall it was stuff like flirting with underaged people, selling HRT drugs via Discord, old sexist tweets, etc.) I don't see why it was not in their interest to pseudo-anonymously have these threats posted themselves. Of course it could just be that some user was stupid enough to post these threats themselves, but I believe the fact remains that "keffals" had more to gain from threats against themselves, since most of what was being posted was perhaps vulgar and certainly impolite, but practically harmless -- more embarrassing for those being "investigated". Just some people with too much time on their hands.

The site is probably going to be resurrected some way, soon enough. I believe hearing that they were considering an onion site. When this happens, I'd be interested to see the post histories of those issuing threats. But of course, since this is a private entity, they have no obligation to look at any evidence that would run contrary to the accusations. Of course this is their right, when considered in isolation, but CloudFlare has become a disproportionately significant player that thinking of them as just another company is rather difficult. In the end this all speaks for the fact that the internet was never intended to work on the scale it does. It is almost a miracle that it appears to do so most of the time ^^.

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#112

The deplatforming logic is practical but pretty shaky as a long term strategy. Kiwifarms absolutely may have been a despicable place causing real harm to people. In that case, the police should initiate a request to take them down that Cloudflare or ISPs etc. are obligated to follow. The problem is the government is completely ineffective and regularly offloads their responsibility to platforms like Facebook, Cloudfl…

You're focusing so hard on the rights of kiwifarms that you completely forget that cloudflare also has rights. Cloudflare has the liberty of association, and that includes the right to terminate contracts with others who actively harm Cloudflare and its costumers.

And if Kiwifarms sending out bytes to the internet is free speech, then compelling cloudflare to send those same bytes is impernissible forced speech.

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#113
HN and Matthew Prince really struggling with these two things:

1. A company can arbitrarily do whatever it wants within the confines of the law. Additionally a company's chief executive and/or leadership team can do whatever it wants so long is it is not in breach of their bylaws and/or they have the support of the board.

2. A company which is publicly traded is beholden to public perception if it affects current and future shareholders views on share price and health of the company. If shareholders believe being associated with potentially illegal activity means Cloudflare could be open to lawsuits, then leadership kicks off that activity. Leadership can't give an honest answer on this because it would admit they were worried about being complicit in illegal activity. This is why you see the response of 'we don't believe this is our responsibility, we're just a neutral entity' PR spin.

To return to OP's post, Cloudflare directly benefits by letting DDoS-for-hire operators use their service. They've been informed of this, this post is one of many on the topic. If you go a few comments back in my comment history you'll note I mentioned Cloudflare also pulled down sex worker sites in the fallout from SESTA being enacted. Why didn't they make the same argument then? Unlike SESTA at the time the caselaw on CFAA supports that DDoS-for-hire is illegal activity, going back a little over 10 years with plenty of prosecutions. The US prosecutor handbook on it was updated around 2010 to add it https://www.justice.gov/criminal/file/442156/download, the last time I remember anyone trying to claim it was legitimate protest was back in 2013 when some Anonymous indictments were handed out. Cloudflare also responds to DMCA takedowns even though they don't host the content, why would they do that if there's no liability?

Lets break it down a little more then: If my business is damaged because my website gets DDoS'd by a protected service Cloudflare knows will make me require the purchase of a service like theirs, why wouldn't I name them as a conspirator in a legal complaint?

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#114
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the U.S. Constitution protects free expression, so the U.S. government's hands are completely tied on this issue. Even if government officials personally think a site probably facilitates behavior that violates the law, actually taking a website offline, rather than targeting individuals for criminal charges only after they've violated the law , unless that website is owned and operated, perhaps, by an individua…

If it's not illegal then it probably isn't causing any serious harm, so Cloudflare doesn't need to block it. If it is, say a direct death threat or telling others to harm someone, then it's already illegal and your explanation isn't needed.

Yep. The government is limited in its powers here exactly so that people are treated fairly and loud factions don’t unduly oppress others.

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#116

HN and Matthew Prince really struggling with these two things: 1. A company can arbitrarily do whatever it wants within the confines of the law. Additionally a company's chief executive and/or leadership team can do whatever it wants so long is it is not in breach of their bylaws and/or they have the support of the board. 2. A company which is publicly traded is beholden to public perception if it affects current and…

[deleted]

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#118
post #111
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This particular private company wants to get out of being forced into a role of content moderator for a fifth of the Internet. This is an infinite time sink with no good outcomes for them. More importantly, this seems to have no good outcomes for us, the viewers. I also don't want Twitter mobs and DDoS-ers to have a say in what I can and can't read.

> I also don't want Twitter mobs and DDoS-ers to have a say in what I can and can't read. This is honestly what I find the most disturbing about the entire story. This "keffals" person -- an individual! -- managed to organise enough attention to make all of this happen. From what I understand the argument is based on a threat towards this person, but considering the (public) information they were gathering on them (F…

> most of what was being posted was perhaps vulgar and certainly impolite, but practically harmless

It was this mild but cloudflare took it down?

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#119
post #118
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also don't want Twitter mobs and DDoS-ers to have a say in what I can and can't read. This is honestly what I find the most disturbing about the entire story. This "keffals" person -- an individual! -- managed to organise enough attention to make all of this happen. From what I understand the argument is based on a threat towards this person, but considering the (public) information they were gathering on them (F…

> most of what was being posted was perhaps vulgar and certainly impolite, but practically harmless It was this mild but cloudflare took it down?

As I said, "most" of it. Apparently there were bomb threats and people posting pictures from outside "keffalas" residence, which naturally is concerning, but at the same time was against KiwiFarms rules.

Re: I ran the worlds largest DDoS-for-Hire empire and Cloudflare helped

#120
> However CloudFlare is not a neutral utility, they are a publicly traded company and have shareholders to report to, can any fire department in the world say the same?

Publicly traded? No, but fire depts in the US were commercial entities paid for by insurance companies. Arguably just as bad.

You had to be a paying member if you wanted them to put out the fire burning your house down.

Well documented that fire depts would stand idly by and do nothing for the neighbours.

But yeah, that's what you get with Cloudflare's shitty analogy.

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