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Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

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Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#111

Post by streptomycin »

juve1996 wrote: post #107
streptomycin wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what the difference is. But it does seem that no matter how much money you throw at a problem with no measurable impact, there will always be people claiming just a little bit more is needed because this time something will be different and it won't be squandered.

We have very clear evidence money solves a lot of problems. Why doesn't it work here? It works everywhere else in our capitalist economy. In any case the difference is quite clear. If a school in a rich suburb doesn't get much federal money than, say, a inner city school, that gets a lot. That rich suburb already has money. They obviously wouldn't get further funding - but are likely much richer?

The numbers I cited before were total $ per pupil from all sources.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#112

Post by streptomycin »

mrguyorama wrote: post #108
streptomycin wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what the difference is. But it does seem that no matter how much money you throw at a problem with no measurable impact, there will always be people claiming just a little bit more is needed because this time something will be different and it won't be squandered.

How much of that "money thrown at the problem" is actually used to pay teachers more and attract competent teaching talent and give the teachers proper resources they don't have to buy with their own money and providing needy students the help they need to succeed? I already know the answer, because many in my family are lifelong teachers. All money goes to facilities that don't always need it, though are still good…

It'll be interesting to see how far things can go before people stop making these arguments. It's the same argument people made 20 years ago. Yet spending keeps going up without results. Check back in another 20, I predict "equity" will be as far away as today but a lot more money will be spent and the public discourse will be the same.

Also, there are different regions and schools where different ways of spending money have been tried. The best results you'll find in the literature are temporary improvements that wash out by the end of high school. The worst results are not even that.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#113

Post by foepys »

georgeecollins wrote: post #85
abadger9 wrote: post #28

I've wished at least 2 dozen times over the last decade that the nordics had better research universities. I spent a portion of my life in Finland and the quality of life is so much better there, I would say it's probably unattainable here (the reduced crime, the affordability of everything, lack of homelessness, a more well educated population, etc.). Unfortunately the research being done at the top universities the…

As an American (who has spend time some time in Finland, btw), it is really strange how mediocre European Universities are. My children are travelers and I want them to try things so I thought, why not apply to some good school in Europe? And there are some good schools for sure. But it's hard to find a school in say Italy or Spain (which have some of the oldest Universities in the world) that can compete in research…

You are trying to apply a US-centric metric where it doesn't work. If you want research, you need to look elsewhere. Universities in Europe are usually for teaching and doing some broad research.

Highly specialized research on US levels is done at dedicated institutes like the Max-Planck-Gesellschaft, Fresenius, CERN, and many more in collaborative efforts on the EU level.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#114

Post by asabjorn »

dataflow wrote: post #105
asabjorn wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I am a bit confused then. We were discussing meritocracy. Are you claiming affirmative action or DEI has no effect on meritocracy? Or that meritocracy in your opinion shouldn't be a consideration? > That would make for a better argument with some examples, instead of pointing to universities and private institutions etc. Why do you think public universities and schools are not government? They are under polit…

> Are you saying that you think DIE is justified in government, universities and private institutions? Trying to understand your position here Sorry, as I mentioned, it's not my intention to state my position on DIE here. > Why do you think public universities and schools are not government? They are under political founding, oversight, funding, and control so that doesn't make sense to me. You're binarizing things t…

> You can't just point at "the government is funding this therefore this is the government". The actual influence the government exerts on an entity compared to all the other influences on that entity is a huge factor here.

Public universities and K-12 are actually owned by state governments, and they are subject to FOIA and constitutional constraints like all government institutions. For instance, they are not supposed to push a state religion.

> The influence has to be "large", for some sensible definition of large. That definition should probably compare the influence with other sources of influence somehow.

So are you arguing that meritocratic considerations should be secondary to other considerations decided with political power?

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#115

Post by juve1996 »

streptomycin wrote: post #111
juve1996 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have very clear evidence money solves a lot of problems. Why doesn't it work here? It works everywhere else in our capitalist economy. In any case the difference is quite clear. If a school in a rich suburb doesn't get much federal money than, say, a inner city school, that gets a lot. That rich suburb already has money. They obviously wouldn't get further funding - but are likely much richer?

The numbers I cited before were total $ per pupil from all sources.

The numbers you cited also have a citation that leads to a 404 and are only for 1 year, in one specific state. Hard to draw any reasonable conclusion from that.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#116

Post by juve1996 »

streptomycin wrote: post #112
mrguyorama wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of that "money thrown at the problem" is actually used to pay teachers more and attract competent teaching talent and give the teachers proper resources they don't have to buy with their own money and providing needy students the help they need to succeed? I already know the answer, because many in my family are lifelong teachers. All money goes to facilities that don't always need it, though are still good…

It'll be interesting to see how far things can go before people stop making these arguments. It's the same argument people made 20 years ago. Yet spending keeps going up without results. Check back in another 20, I predict "equity" will be as far away as today but a lot more money will be spent and the public discourse will be the same. Also, there are different regions and schools where different ways of spending mo…

Investment clearly works across all facets of our economy. It could work, in schools, too. But our society will never allow for what it really takes to adequately use the funding given to it.

It's not surprising students did better as they were younger. Poor districts expose children to bad outcomes earlier leading to poor performance in school, obviously during the teenage years.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#117

Post by edmcnulty101 »

jeffbee wrote: post #54
edmcnulty101 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment seems extremely ignorant. Wanting scientists to have accountability with our tax money seems like a valid ask. > eradicating polio -> almost a century ago 1950s? > discovering the structure of dna -> almost a century ago 1950s > developing vaccines that prevent common cancers -> cancer is the second leading cause of death, this hasn't impacted the world significantly and isn't even a treatment except in…

The first serial production of battery-electric cars was in 1906. The HPV vaccine has already cut the rate of cervical cancers by more than 90% in the age groups that have benefitted from the vaccine. If you think savings the lives of thousands of young women is not an impact, you're just reinforcing my opinion of you.

Over a trillion dollars to save thousands of lives. I don't know if that's an ideal investment.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#118

Post by asabjorn »

anon291 wrote: post #97
dataflow wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think this remains true with DIE and affirmative action being implemented in all major employers, universities and institutions? Meritocracy is about how government employees (or those who aren't legally "employees" per se, but who still have the political power) are chosen, not about how students or private employees are chosen. (c.f. how the existence of religious schools doesn't imply the country is a the…

Meritocracy actually is about how students or private employees are chosen, since the word is typically used to apply to the entire society of the USA, not just its government. So yeah, if all schools were suddenly uber-Catholic and dissuaded non-Catholics for example, then that would mean the society has become less meritocratic. Or if companies had racial preferences in hiring instead of hiring based on merit and a…

Good points. Also, constitutional constraints apply to public schools and universities so they are not supposed to push a state religion such as marxist theology. It is also illegal to fire someone or discriminate against them for not adopting a faith.

Right now the job is to make more aware that marxism and by proxy wokism doesn't just look like a religion, it is a religion and has a clear theology, so constitutional protections against state religions apply and this should stop the woke abuse of political power for religious aims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqj-MKG9SnU&t=1s

Likewise constitutional protections apply against enforcement of the marxist faith using DIE.

Re: Why Does the U.S. Have the Best Research Universities? (2020)

#120

Post by RC_ITR »

dcolkitt wrote: post #58
Test0129 wrote: post #10

> Combined with sorting dynamics that concentrated talent and resources at some schools—and the emergence of tenure—this enhanced research performance. Something tells me this is only part of the story. Yes, after several wars we took in scientists who subsequently brought new ideas, improved teaching, etc to the country. But this ignores the biggest factor: US universities have tremendous endowments [1]. Having depl…

These are all good points. But what's interesting is that very similar things could also be said about the US healthcare system . And yet unlike American universities, it's not clear that American hospitals or healthcare is worldclass.

The US had some of the best hospitals in the world, often because they are associated with the best research universities.

The problem with US healthcare is distribution (a similar but less acute problem exists in education) and efficiency (same).

In fact you could argue that US healthcare priorities being so similar to our education priorities (i.e. spend a bunch of resources on the absolute best, particularly infinitely scalable research like pharmaceuticals, but then hope and pray for the underfunded rest) is what causes a lot of the criticism people levy against US healthcare.

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