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Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

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Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#111

Post by blagie »

thatswrong0 wrote: post #109
jimmygrapes wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoiler alert: I'm probably what you'd call a hard line Republican That said, yes, I've changed the minds of people with fixed ideals, many times, over several decades. Step one is to listen to them without trying to. > Guns What is the mindset that needs to be changed? Republicans, as a bloc, support the right of anybody of sound mind and character (presumptive prerequisites for being part of a potential [and hopefu…

Not the OP you're replying to but: I think there's a chasm between what views Republican voters hold, and what the Republican party stands for, and not being able to distinguish between the two leads to people talking past each other. And yet, being a Republican voter means implicitly endorsing the views of the Republican party. So maybe this chasm doesn't matter. If you vote for a person who explicitly is against cl…

> If you vote for a person who explicitly .... then that says something about your own personal philosophy.

I'd suggest 1984. Democrats do horrible things Fox News reports on. Republicans do horrible things NY Times report on. Each side votes on different information. In most cases, the information isn't even wrong (although sometimes it is). It's just that major politically-inconvenient things are simply omitted.

This isn't just the US with the red/blue split. The whole world is going with personalized they-are-the-enemy news. I see the same think happening in many countries with completely different ideological divisions.

> Labelling a private company's platform as a pseudo-public forum is also at odds

See Standard Oil and friends a century ago.

> ...if an unarmed black person gets killed by a cop...

Which happens, but not a statistically significant amount.

There is a much bigger problem with the criminal justice system (see The New Jim Crow for a good analysis), but it can't get fixed, in large part due to corruption on the side of the Democrats. The Democrats talk a good game, but are mostly against justice system reform. Law firms donate to Democrats, and anything which reduces the influence of money on justice consistently gets blocked by Democrats.

Police issues are more complex, with corruption on both sides (I'm sure you're familiar with the red side, but Democrats have strong union ties, including police unions).

> how many school shootings?

Not a statistically significant amount. If you want to save kids, improve road safety and have more COVID precautions. Seriously.

I'm not a Republican (let alone a hard-side one), but I do read both sides of the media, and both sides ignore facts, science, and reality.

Don't get me started on Democrats and charter schools. That's the biggest evolution / climate change of liberals.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#112

Post by feet »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #106
feet wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very individualistic. The reality is that we all take part in the same system whether we like it or not.

This doesn't address what I said at all. Yes, we're all in the same system, so what? Is a person obligated to risk their own position in that system for the sake of someone else? Legally, no. In many ethical systems, also no. You claimed that people who are not taking action are complicit. Often that is absolutely not the case. Often in fact those people are helpless, bound by their own situations. Let's take the exa…

Why do people feel the need to rob others? Yes, sure there are some tiny percentage of people with severe mental illness who enjoy seeing others in pain but that's not the majority. The majority is due to a lack of opportunity combined with systemic oppression.

The problem of workplace bullying putting a job at risk is a problem which is a power imbalance inherent to capitalism. Forming unions, where people speak up for each other and stick together, is the best way to solve that problem without fundamentally changing the system.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#113

Post by jimmygrapes »

thatswrong0 wrote: post #109
jimmygrapes wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoiler alert: I'm probably what you'd call a hard line Republican That said, yes, I've changed the minds of people with fixed ideals, many times, over several decades. Step one is to listen to them without trying to. > Guns What is the mindset that needs to be changed? Republicans, as a bloc, support the right of anybody of sound mind and character (presumptive prerequisites for being part of a potential [and hopefu…

Not the OP you're replying to but: I think there's a chasm between what views Republican voters hold, and what the Republican party stands for, and not being able to distinguish between the two leads to people talking past each other. And yet, being a Republican voter means implicitly endorsing the views of the Republican party. So maybe this chasm doesn't matter. If you vote for a person who explicitly is against cl…

Oh yeah, I think I might agree for the most part. The RNC and general party platform is very often not reflective of the people who vote Republican, and I can't yet figure out why that is (other than simple contrarianism). I don't think the official platform is so black and white as to be entirely disconnected from the voters, but i get it.

Your point about the cognitive dissonance in the "censorship" thing is very salient. I wasn't sure how to word it properly, so I threw "pseudo" on there to hedge it a little. I don't think I was being disingenuous, though; once you take at face value the de facto nature of social media being a (not the) primary method of information dissemination and conversation of the lesser man, the whole public/private thing becomes more academic. Yes, private companies can do what they want. No, I don't like being removed from them. Yes, I think that they should not be so heavy handed with removing opinion. No, I don't think any legislation is appropriate to remedy that concern. And so on. Nuance, you know? Which is what the original poster was saying Republicans don't have (along with ability to reason out consequences).

I dunno man, I just want to try to get "the other side" to realize we ain't all cardboard caricatures.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#114

Post by selimthegrim »

rayiner wrote: post #108
V__ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we look back at my example. Would you say the same thing to the Ukrainian making that point? If not, we agree that there is a line at which politics end and extremism begins, which has nothing to do with attitude. Personally, I find it obvious that Republicans have crossed that line. Maybe they will come back, maybe not. This also doesn't mean, one shouldn't try to discuss or interact with them, but be wary of wha…

> Personally, I find it obvious that Republicans have crossed that line. Maybe they will come back, maybe not. Republicans have just inherited a bunch of low-information voters in the Midwest that used to vote Democrat, and have kind of lost control of them. The one’s going on about Diebold machines and whatnot in 2004. I’ve had a bunch of weird ass conversations with Joe Rogan type democrats over the years. The leng…

This is probably akin to the Latinos in Texas who lap up Ted Cruz calling Beto’s nickname pandering and ignore the face that Cruz’s Spanish is worse.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#116

Post by wdr1 »

dariusj18 wrote: post #82
googlryas wrote: post #62

There's a meme, where someone goes on a rant in the wrong location and someone responds "Sir, this is a Wendy's". Maybe we need one for "Sir, this company sells shoes". It isn't clear to me why a person trying to sell shoes needs to take a stand about one politician or another. Except for the fact that there is only one thing partisans hate more than their enemies - the people who aren't part of the partisan fray.

Nike is not a shoe company, they are an image company who use shoes as their medium.

Those are called "brands."

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#117

Post by rayiner »

selimthegrim wrote: post #114
rayiner wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I find it obvious that Republicans have crossed that line. Maybe they will come back, maybe not. Republicans have just inherited a bunch of low-information voters in the Midwest that used to vote Democrat, and have kind of lost control of them. The one’s going on about Diebold machines and whatnot in 2004. I’ve had a bunch of weird ass conversations with Joe Rogan type democrats over the years. The leng…

This is probably akin to the Latinos in Texas who lap up Ted Cruz calling Beto’s nickname pandering and ignore the face that Cruz’s Spanish is worse.

Sure. They recognize someone who shares their values—his positions are quite typical of Cubans and Tejanos—but whose language skills are consistent with being a second generation immigrant, versus someone who speaks Spanish as window dressing for peddling white values. Cruz, moreover, is someone who has assimilated into white culture to the limited extent the GOP demands—speak English and believe in guns and capitalism—and does not hide the ball about it. Beto, by contrast, represents the strain of white culture that insists on complete assimilation while professing multiculturalism. You can have diversity, so long as it’s completely superficial and non-threatening.

My Bangla isn’t great, but I live 10 minutes away from my parents, worry what my aunties will think, and believe that my dad is right about most things. I find Trump voters quite relatable. Apart from the same skepticism of outsiders and lack of cosmopolitanism that’s nearly universal in Bangladesh, most are nice people in person. And they don’t want to teach my kids a bunch of weird things.

I came across this article today: https://www.dhakatribune.com/bangladesh/2022/08/18/do-not-se... (“Do not see yourselves as minorities, PM Hasina tells Hindus… Please do not undermine yourselves.”) Contrast the white guy in my link above declaring himself a “racist.” No Bangladeshi would ever do that! It’s alarming!

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#118

Post by origin_path »

_9xrb wrote: post #98
bluefirebrand wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sir-this-is-a-wendys is the meme OP was referring to. I do like your observation that "only extremists feel comfortable making certain obvious true statements" I'm going to have to think on that one. It seems to me that is a very bad place for public discourse to be in.

It's incredible how far the Overton window has moved in only a decade. This nonpartisan Channel 4 fact-check on race and crime matches numerous criteria for "hate speech" under Reddit's current policies: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-amer... Channel 4 is considered a fact-based, center-left news outlet: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/channel-4-news-uk/

Channel 4 is definitely not considered fact based or center left; it's really very left wing indeed and is about as "fact based" as as the rest of the media (i.e. not very).

It's very telling that the top two most popular videos on Channel 4 News' YouTube channel are:

1. A weather man correctly pronouncing the name of the Welsh town of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

2. Jordan Peterson being interviewed by a C4 journalist. After it was uploaded it was described by one pundit as the most disastrous interview for the interviewer they'd ever seen. It has nearly 40 million views, mostly because the interviewer is so absurdly ideologically biased against Peterson and is clearly trying to paint him as absolute evil, yet he handles it (relatively) so well. At one point the interviewer actually becomes so confused she literally runs out of words and doesn't know what to say, leading Peterson to say, "hah, I gotcha" and she replies "yes, yes you have got me".

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#119

Post by meragrin_ »

wahern wrote: post #87
illuminerdy wrote: post #48

Businesses are supposed to be separate entities from the individuals who own them. I don't understand why people think businesses need to be political. If that's the case then just start your own Political Action Committee.

The zealot's standard rejoinder is that everything is political. See, also, you're either with us or against. What contemporary liberal politics has brought to the table is "science" that purports to show a simple, direct link between rhetorical opposition or even mere abstention, and directly consequential, imminent harm. See, e.g., claims re trans-gender suicides, or just today insinuations that compromises made in…

> e.g., conservative claims about the how Civil Rights Act would directly lead to blacks and latinos raping and murdering whites

Are you sure that wasn't largely a southern Democrat thing? For the Civil Rights Acts of 1957, 1960, and 1964, ~80% of Republicans voted for them. Meanwhile, only ~65% of Democrats voted for them. It was mostly southern Democrats filibustering/voting against the bills.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1957 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1960

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#120

Post by alexb_ »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #85
deepdriver wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Burgers?" https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/are-you-sure-this-will-help-u... The meme creator is unfortunately quite racist. I see it is a problem if extremists are the only ones comfortable making certain obvious true statements. It attracts the support of people who might otherwise remain moderate.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sir-this-is-a-wendys is the meme OP was referring to. I do like your observation that "only extremists feel comfortable making certain obvious true statements" I'm going to have to think on that one. It seems to me that is a very bad place for public discourse to be in.

There is a large body of thought that encourages censorship of ideas which might bring people to undesirable conclusions. It feeds in on itself, and this is what happens.
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