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Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

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Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#111

Post by sarchertech »

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

You’re setting up a gigantic straw man. There are camps on HN who dislike all of those things individually—you can’t just take the union of everything someone here dislikes and call it the HN gestalt.

>do something unfun to get hired

I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts.

I personally don’t mind putting together a portfolio the way most other creative industries do it. At least then I could use it multiple times.

What I don’t like is being treated like a new grad when I have close to 20 years of experience.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#112

Post by morelisp »

Majestic121 wrote: post #98
morelisp wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We put a shibboleth in our test for this reason, there's ~20 solutions up on GitHub and 80% of them are wrong. Feel free to copy them, it makes it so much easier for me to grade.

What does shibboleth mean to you ? It does not seem to match the original meaning of 'a signal to differentiate people from the in-group'

It differentiates our test from other GitHub projects.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#113

Post by tommoor »

stephencanon wrote: post #103
CJefferson wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have rapidly skipped over the exact thing no-one complains about -- a take-home piece of work paid at a reasonable rate. You just claimed people would complain. I've done exactly this, and everyone seemed happy.

The only real issue with this one is that many folks you might want to hire are prevented from doing outside piecework like this by their contract with their current employer. That's not a dealbreaker, it just means that you either don't hire those folks, or you have two systems available.

Also visas, almost anyone on an employee sponsored work visa is not permitted to undertake contract work.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#114

Post by collyw »

The best interview experience that I had, the interviewer asked me to bring in a laptop with some of my code. I did, we went through it talked about it, he asked me to add a simple feature, I did. Code I was familiar with (like in a day job). No gotchas. Symmetrical effort from both interviewer and candidate. Worked well for me at least.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#115

Post by wowokay »

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

Also it should ooz through our LinkedIn profile. They can verify the experience.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#116

Post by rdez6173 »

coffeeblack wrote: post #39
jjgreen wrote: post #19

For a 2015 ML job I applied for: | We are wondering if you would like to attempt our code challenge (C/C++ or | Python). It is a Computer Vision problem which we think can be solved in | about 8 hours. I'm afraid I wouldn't, 8 hours is far too much for a interview problem. However, thanks for considering my application.

Alternative response: “Sure, I charge $xxx per hour, payable in advance. Please deposit to account xxxx and you get the solution 24 later.”

I think it's important to remember that candidates should evaluating the viability of the company as a potential future employer. This seems like a reason to look elsewhere. They do not seem to value the candidate's time (assuming positive intent otherwise).

I'd skip the shenanigans and look elsewhere. I think "thanks, but no thanks" is a good response in this case.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#117

Post by warrenm »

wikfwikf wrote: post #108
jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

'The HN gestalt' seems to mean that you have taken comments by completely different people with different preferences and synthesized them as though they were all said by the same person?

And that that "same person" is somehow the zeitgeist of HN itself!

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#118

Post by morelisp »

sarchertech wrote: post #111
jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

You’re setting up a gigantic straw man. There are camps on HN who dislike all of those things individually—you can’t just take the union of everything someone here dislikes and call it the HN gestalt. >do something unfun to get hired I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. I personally don’t mind putting together a portfolio the way most other creative indu…

I don't know any other trade that so thoroughly rejects apprenticeships, licensure, and formal certifications.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#119

Post by bluGill »

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

> Apparently the approved HN method is to arrange the resumes on a dartboard, throw darts at it, and commit up front to hiring whoever you hit unconditionally for at least two years without no possibility of having to fire them.

Name me one interview method that actually has better results than that? Okay, lets eliminate the ones that are obviously unqualified from the ones we paste up, is your method still better?

Most people interviewing honestly have no reason to believe they have a better method. There has been a fair amount of scientific research about how to select good employees, but none of that has made it to the people interviewing. I don't know much that will help, but HR really should be finding scientific basis for how to interview and training people on that.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#120

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

sarchertech wrote: post #111
jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

You’re setting up a gigantic straw man. There are camps on HN who dislike all of those things individually—you can’t just take the union of everything someone here dislikes and call it the HN gestalt. >do something unfun to get hired I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. I personally don’t mind putting together a portfolio the way most other creative indu…

>I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts.

Because nearly every other industry is credentialed, so proving your 3-8 years of university grind is enough to get hired.

Outside of tech, any other white collar interview is basically a 15-60 minute coffee or lunch with the boss (the culture fit interview basically) and then, unless you showed some red flags, you get hired.

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