Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

spectrum.ieee.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 131 posts

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#111

Post by Aeolun »

usrusr wrote: post #58
Aeolun wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The human mind acclimates to improvements remarkably fast, and the joy found in such novelties tends to be fleeting and quickly fade as it becomes just another normal part of everyday life The good (?) news is that this also works in reverse. So if we ever suffer a serious downgrade in living standards it’s not a serious issue. We’ll get used to it in no time :)

Does it? I get painfully nostalgic even about stuff that was objectively worse, don't even want to try to imagine how it must be with things that were better.

Well, we just had a global experiment wherein people all over world suddenly had to adjust their lives in a major way, and I think we came through alright.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#112

Post by londons_explore »

5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #105
AdamN wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of these drives is not for archive. In fact, individual SSDs in general should not be used for archiving. They are for performance. Since we're probably talking about laptops or phones typically, there's also the loss of the device or catastrophic failure (fire?) to worry about so there needs to be a disaster recovery plan regardless.

No need for any "archiving". I live in a country where you get drafted for a mandatory army service once you reach 18 years of age. The user leaves his desktop (or laptop) at home, goes to the army, returns back in a year, and — whoops — there's no data left on the drive. You know the user should have kept backups, and I know that, but your average Joe is going to be pretty unpleasantly surprised.

Thats why the drive should have a battery backup builtin lasting many years...

Years of battery life isn't tricky, because the drive can, upon being unpowered for a week, rewrite data to be more durable at the expense of access time. 'recovery blocks' can be created which allow the recovery of any unreadable block on the drive. The drive can then wake up and rewrite data only as often as needed based on temperature and the error rate found on the last rewrite. For example, on a 1TB SSD, you might only rewrite 5GB/day, taking just 10 seconds at 1 watt. On a 5 Wh battery, thats 5 years. And thats a worst case - keep it somewhere cool, and the rewrite rate might be halved, doubling battery life. Have the drive half full, and the battery life is doubled again (due to half as much to rewrite), and multiplied by 8 (due to the ability to use the spare space for ECC data). So a half full drive stored in a cool place might be able to last 160 years. Obviously at that point, the battery self discharge and power to run timers will dominate.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#113

Post by WithinReason »

B1FF_PSUVM wrote: post #47
Zandikar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a death knell for hard drives if they could actually get it that cheap (~$25/TB). In addition to obvious benefits for consumers, More and more in the enterprise space (which is the dominant buyer of HDD unit purchase volume) HDD's are being regulated to write few, read lots if not outright WORM, and focused on Sequential speeds. You can knock an order of magnitude of speed off modern NAND Flash and stil…

> wouldn't kill HDD's overnight What's killing HDDs for me - looking at desktop use - is noise. Seems it got weirder lately, with wear-levelling ringing in every five seconds, etc. Today I just "rebuilt" a brand new HP box by adding RAM and swapping the original 512 GB M2 SSD for a 2 TB one (Crucial P5 Plus, nice specs). Thinking of adding a 6 or 8 TB HDD for data landfill, but most any customer review mentions aggra…

When I built a quiet computer I was surprised that even at max load it was the HDD that was by far the loudest

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#114

Post by ksec »

imtringued wrote: post #106
ksec wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Prices will go down over time as manufacturing improves That is not always true though. If we look at DRAM. There is a reason why we are still stuck with 8GB DRAM as entry level while 99.99999% of tech community including HN has been stating DRAM is cheap and it is only going to be cheaper for more than a decade. The cost to produce DRAM has only dropped 10-20% over the past decade, while pricing fluctuate a lot as…

I bought 32GB for 100€. That is roughly 3€/GB which is 24€ for 8GB that is a ridiculously low price for something I would have had 10 years ago.

https://thememoryguy.com/dram-prices-hit-historic-low/

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#115

Post by [deleted] »

Zandikar wrote: post #20
ksec wrote: post #14

A much better article on Anandtech [1]. Dual Stack 116 Layers. And as noted inside the article 100+ layer per stack isn't exactly new. Personally I am interested in Cost per Bit reduction. Hopefully there will be news in Flash Memory Summit new week. I wouldn't mind to have a slow 100 write cycle NAND that cost a third of today's price. Think 2TB USB Stick for $49. [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/17509/microns-232…

That would be a death knell for hard drives if they could actually get it that cheap (~$25/TB). In addition to obvious benefits for consumers, More and more in the enterprise space (which is the dominant buyer of HDD unit purchase volume) HDD's are being regulated to write few, read lots if not outright WORM, and focused on Sequential speeds. You can knock an order of magnitude of speed off modern NAND Flash and stil…

[deleted]

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#117

Post by mgerdts »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #68
mgerdts wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t account for the write amplification factor, which is quite unlikely to be 1 with a naive wear leveling implementation and the most brutal write workload.

note that there are data structures (eg b epsilon trees) that can guarantee a write amplification factor of log_b(disk size) for very large b (over 1000). this means that if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of sequential read speed, you can guarantee write amplification of no more than 4 (with a few mb of RAM).

I've added [1] to my reading list. Do you have suggestions for others that relate specifically to WAF?

1. http://supertech.csail.mit.edu/papers/BenderFaJa15.pdf

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#118

Post by visarga »

TomSwirly wrote: post #85
visarga wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The human mind acclimates to improvements remarkably fast, and the joy found in such novelties tends to be fleeting and quickly fade as it becomes just another normal part of everyday life we take for granted This is why I am not afraid automation is going to render us without jobs. We're going to get accustomed with better, and still need to work. AI exponential increase can't keep up with human entitlement.

> still need to work Us needing to work does not meant that the jobs will still be there for us to work at. The reason so much money goes into automation is simply because it cuts the payroll. The argument that there have always been jobs in the past, so there will always be jobs in the future, simply does not follow..

Companies want automation for many more reasons besides cost cutting:

- latency - respond sooner to a request

- speed - work faster

- volume - produce more

- scalability - just deploy more models

- vigilance - the bot doesn't get tired and start making mistakes

- consistency - the bot does things one way, many people do things in many ways

- fewer human problems - no cutting corners, slacking off, office politics, etc

- lower environmental footprint

- increased work safety

- improved tracking - collect more data to analyse in order to improve your processes

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#119

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

mgerdts wrote: post #117
adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

note that there are data structures (eg b epsilon trees) that can guarantee a write amplification factor of log_b(disk size) for very large b (over 1000). this means that if you are willing to sacrifice a small amount of sequential read speed, you can guarantee write amplification of no more than 4 (with a few mb of RAM).

I've added [1] to my reading list. Do you have suggestions for others that relate specifically to WAF? 1. http://supertech.csail.mit.edu/papers/BenderFaJa15.pdf

The TLDR is that the design of b^e means that (other than the root node which you can store in RAM), you never need to write in chunks less than b^e (smaller writes get batched and pushed down the tree only when you have that much data to write to a child node). With the typical, e=1/2, you can set b=blocksize of SSD^2. This means that any small write will turn into 1 write per depth of the tree, and each of those writes will be writing a full block of data (so the maximal WAF is the depth of the tree). Also, for bigger writes, you can just write to the bottom directly, so this ends up working out such that for large sequential writes, you get a WAF of 1, and for small/random writes, you get a WAF of d.

Re: Micron's 232-layer NAND enables 2TB flash chips that deliver data 50% faster

#120

Post by Dylan16807 »

magicalhippo wrote: post #107
formerly_proven wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me like initially people were worried about SSD endurance but now nobody seems to care anymore, because endurance hasn't turned out to be a significant issue. In fact, I suspect developers care a lot less about I/O patterns now because 1) the performance impact of bad I/O patterns is still high, but the performance floor is way higher on SSDs, so it basically "doesn't matter" for most 2) for end-user appl…

> endurance hasn't turned out to be a significant issue To be fair, I think it's a bit like y2k. It's not an issue because steps have been taken to mitigate it.

I don't know. Simple correction and wear leveling was required to get off the ground, and that by itself was enough to make early drives have sufficient endurance.

The real mitigation work was done in the service of storing more bits per cell, with endurance allowed to slip.

So sure effort has been put in, but the alternative wasn't disaster, it was using SLC more.

Post reply on HN