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Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

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Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#111

Post by twblalock »

jl6 wrote: post #100
wmf wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech is far larger than publishing and there's potentially more money to be made organizing/consuming the world's information than in owning it. Some people have been pointing this out for 20 years.

For example, Apple could buy News Corporation (the parent company of HarperCollins, one of the litigants) with a single quarter’s profits. Not revenue, profit. News Corporation enterprise value: $11bn Apple quarterly profit: $25bn

Yes but why should Apple do that? How would Apple benefit from doing that?

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#112

Post by somenameforme »

orev wrote: post #79
yellowapple wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, what you call "rent seeking" others would call "return on investment". Which they've largely already enjoyed many times over. I have precisely zero sympathy for the poor widdle publishing corporations.

Using your same logic, I will single-handedly decide that all software companies (and the developers working there) have received enough compensation for their efforts, and demand all their services and code be made available for free. As long as you got one paycheck from those months of work, now I want it for free. /s

It's interesting to consider that there are books, still in copyright, that were published before any digital computers, let alone software companies, existed.

It puts the extreme absurdity of modern copyright law in context. 20 years is extreme. The modern "standard" is the entire life of the author + 70 years on top. This is indefensible.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#113

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

TekMol wrote: post #8

I never understood how the IA can get away with copying all those websites and all their content as if copyright did not exist. Can anybody enlighten me how they have not been sued into oblivion and sit in prison already?

There are special rules for archives that might help: https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#108

Not sure if that's the specific part that lets them do what they do, or if that's from some other rule, just pointing out that this kind of rule exists.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#114

Post by twblalock »

hash07e wrote: post #57
twblalock wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ask for forgiveness not permission if you want to innovate. That only works if you are capable of handling the legal trouble that results.

Like Uber.. Right?

Uber still exists and that is proof that their plan worked. They didn't just break laws (and a lot of what they broke were just regulations, not "real" laws, and those regulations were often corrupt anyway): they also lobbied to get the laws/regulations changed, including through the California ballot proposition process and by directly approaching politicians in the EU, and they have won numerous lawsuits.

The Internet Archive appears to have simply decided they could break copyright law, which is a very well supported area of law unlike taxi regulations, and they made no efforts to protect themselves. Pretty stupid. I certainly would not donate to an organization that might waste my donations on stupid things like this.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#115

Post by ghaff »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #74
Rebelgecko wrote: post #21

This is pretty much why I stopped donating to them, not like they'll miss the sporadic $50 they'd get from me. Getting sued is a pretty obvious result of their decision to ignore copyright laws. If they didn't realize that they'd be sued then they're hopelessly shortsighted (there's no "emergency" exemption to copyright laws, even if you can make the argument that morally there should be). If they did know that they'…

It doesn't seem as cut and dry as you make it seem. Archival institutions are allowed to make digitized copies of legitimately owned works, and to allow access to that copy on their own "premises". In the case of an organization like the internet archive which does not have physical premises, would you accept the argument that their 'premises' is the internet? The question that they want answered is: where exactly is…

There is a perhaps novel, perhaps not, argument to be made that virtually time-limited lending of a digital copy of a physical book you own is covered by first sale. May be a reason the publishers never pushed it.

There's also a whole other issue around scraping copyrighted public web pages in general but between being a non-profit archive, respecting robots.txt, and (at least mostly) taking pages down on request, TIA seems to have mostly skirted legal attention in that respect.

(Though it's probably a bit legally iffy. If I create an online comics museum and start hosting all sorts of syndicated content, I'm probably going to get a letter from a lawyer.)

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#116

Post by ghaff »

samwillis wrote: post #9
TekMol wrote: post #8

I never understood how the IA can get away with copying all those websites and all their content as if copyright did not exist. Can anybody enlighten me how they have not been sued into oblivion and sit in prison already?

If you ask to have something removed, or to exclude your site, they do. They comply with robots.txt, I believe even retrospectively. I think they try hard NOT to be sued. They are also not making a profit from “copied” content, and so damages would be small. Particularly as they would immediately remove the problematic content.

Basically (until now), they make themselves as reasonable and as little of a target as they can.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#117

Post by yellowapple »

orev wrote: post #79
yellowapple wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, what you call "rent seeking" others would call "return on investment". Which they've largely already enjoyed many times over. I have precisely zero sympathy for the poor widdle publishing corporations.

Using your same logic, I will single-handedly decide that all software companies (and the developers working there) have received enough compensation for their efforts, and demand all their services and code be made available for free. As long as you got one paycheck from those months of work, now I want it for free. /s

My code is already free. The service I provide is creating new code, not selling existing code.

Contrast with publishers, where it's the other way around.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#118

Post by happyopossum »

plonk wrote: post #106
citizenkeen wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That genuinely may be so, but "this law i broke shouldn't exist" is not an advisable legal defense. It actually happens more often than you might think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Is there a jury here? It's copyright, not a murder.

That's not really relevant - someone accused of copyright violation has the right to a jury trial.

[1] https://www.rcfp.org/court-finds-right-jury-trial-copyright-...

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#119

Post by FrenchDevRemote »

eslaught wrote: post #73
metadat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders. At the end of the day, The Internet Archive has good intentions and is morally in the right. The time has come to consider changing the laws to allow for truly fair use, especially for physical items scanned to digital (e.g. books), old video games, and more. It's about selecting for the common good over the…

Disclosures: I've written a book I'm currently trying to get published. Also, almost all of my professionally-written (as well as personal) code is open source. And I have used the Wayback Machine extensively. To be honest, I'm having a hard time getting upset over this lawsuit. As best I can tell, IA isn't getting sued over having scanned the books. They're not even getting sued over lending them out. Instead, they'…

Or maybe the law is crap?

>And... that's it. It really has no long-term ramifications, aside from whatever legal precedent it sets (if any).

No that's not it.

The amount of books some people can afford is zero. Lawsuits like this are making the general population dumber, more ignorant, poorer, it accomplish nothing besides increasing inequalities and making society worse for everyone. Libraries can be good if you're into very mainstream topics, and you're fine with brushing the surface of the subjects you're interested in or if learning outdated stuff is ok to you, and of course you still need to live somewhere where libraries are decently funded and where book banning isn't a thing. All books should be accessible freely, to anyone, at anytime, anywhere.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#120

Post by [deleted] »

plonk wrote: post #106
citizenkeen wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That genuinely may be so, but "this law i broke shouldn't exist" is not an advisable legal defense. It actually happens more often than you might think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Is there a jury here? It's copyright, not a murder.

[deleted]
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