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We can't check the app permissions on Google Play anymore

bluespace.tech

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Re: We can't check the app permissions on Google Play anymore

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that would imply one of two things: - Whatsapp keeps all its internal data in your Photos folder. - Whenever you want to send someone an image, you need to manually copy the image from wherever it is to the Whatsapp folder.

Nonsense. Selecting a file to share without giving access to all files is already a solved problem via file pickets.

The basic use case works, but quite a few things beyond that are broken. None of the various sandboxing attempts (not just Android, but everything) properly handles multi-file file formats [1], so that alone is very much not a solved problem!.

Keeping an LRU list for files that were opened from outside of your own app becomes needlessly complicated [2].

Access gained that way isn't directly compatible with things expecting classic File API access (and sometimes those things are outside of your immediate control, like external libraries and even parts of the Android framework itself), and unfortunately the easiest workaround to that problem is just copying the file into your own private storage.

[1] As far as I'm aware, only macOS attempts to at least handle related files that only differ in their file extension, but even that still doesn't cover more complex file formats like playlists, or HTML or DWG files or whatnot that can reference arbitrary other files.

[2] If the same file is shared via different apps, the way things have been implemented on Android it becomes more complicated for the receiving to check whether those two incoming file shares actually refer to the same underlying file or not. Plus for an LRU list to make sense you need to try persisting the file permissions so you can still access the file later on [3] and also especially take care not to leak those permissions when you clean up the LRU list.

[3] Which also leads to some strange scenarios like when you switch to a new file manager and uninstall the previous app, all LRU entries in other apps that were originally opened via that previous file manager now suddenly become invalid.

Re: We can't check the app permissions on Google Play anymore

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if an APK doesn't declare that permission, then it still can't access the Internet.

But why make it a "permission" then, if it is automatically granted? It should just be part of the regular API.

Probably some combination of inertia, future-proofing, and because it might facilitate some sort of internal bookkeeping inside the OS and/or the app store. After all there are quite a few more of those permissions around that have to be declared, but which are automatically granted and not specially surfaced within the UI.

Re: We can't check the app permissions on Google Play anymore

#113

The dynamic permissions are not a replacement. Some users would never even install apps that asked for too many static permissions on the Play page. But now, if an app seems to meet their needs and they aren't sure, some of them will go ahead and install it just to try it out. How much can one run hurt after all? Due to unresolved questions or sunk cost dilemmas, they may even grant dynamic permissions. How much can…

> Some users would never even install apps that asked for too many static permissions on the Play page. This, so much! Like 90% of the apps on Play ask for an insanely excessive amount of permissions. It was the #1 indicator for sorting out garbage apps. Example: Some time ago I needed a kitchen timer app (stock one had some issue). The great majority of them wanted permissions like contacts, access to my files, GPS…

> Example: Some time ago I needed a kitchen timer app (stock one had some issue). The great majority of them wanted permissions like contacts, access to my files, GPS location, and on top of it internet to upload all of this probably. Even though a kitchen timer shouldn't require any private data at all!

That's completely legitimate. It needs those permissions to tell your guests when dinner is ready, where it is being served, and what is being served.

More seriously though, I bought a tablet many years back which shipped with a simple word game that had insane permissions. Among them was access to contacts. When I pointed that out to people they would claim it was required for multi-player support. When I pointed out that one could add the contacts manually, most of the people thought I was insane even though this was at a time when people usually added contacts to desktop applications manually. They didn't understand that some people viewed it as impolite to share contacts of others without their permission (never mind the privacy implications). They didn't understand that most people would only play the game in single-user mode because it was a single play game with a "multi-player" mode tacked on. The multi-player mode was literally tacked on to harvest marketing data.

Re: We can't check the app permissions on Google Play anymore

#114
post #47

The dynamic permissions are not a replacement. Some users would never even install apps that asked for too many static permissions on the Play page. But now, if an app seems to meet their needs and they aren't sure, some of them will go ahead and install it just to try it out. How much can one run hurt after all? Due to unresolved questions or sunk cost dilemmas, they may even grant dynamic permissions. How much can…

What they really need to do is to simulate data for permissions that are rejected. For example, if I reject location permissions, then play back a random GPS trail in a randomly selected city on the planet, complete with simulated error and drift. If I reject Wi-Fi scanning, then show a constantly changing set of fake access points. If I reject camera, then play back some cartoons or deepfaked video as a camera devic…

e/OS has this for GPS. Albeit globally and not per app.

Re: We can't check the app permissions on Google Play anymore

#115

I don't think I've checked permissions on the play store in ages. Don't apps prompt when they access things now? Speaking of which, anyone from Spotify around? Could you kindly take your request for control over Bluetooth and shove it up your fuckin arse? Why must I say no to this every time I open the app? No means no.

> Don't apps prompt when they access things now? For some permissions, but not all of them. For example, they don't for Internet access. > Why must I say no to this every time I open the app? Doesn't Android have a "don't ask again" option for permissions?

> Why must I say no to this every time I open the app?

It's a custom nudge. It's shown by the Spotify app. Clicking on the CTA takes you to the settings page or something.

Re: We can't check the app permissions on Google Play anymore

#117

The dynamic permissions are not a replacement. Some users would never even install apps that asked for too many static permissions on the Play page. But now, if an app seems to meet their needs and they aren't sure, some of them will go ahead and install it just to try it out. How much can one run hurt after all? Due to unresolved questions or sunk cost dilemmas, they may even grant dynamic permissions. How much can…

There should be a simple standard way to fake/limit all permissions.

For example, the app wants to access your contacts. Instead of "yes or no", you choose a subset of contacts that the app is allowed to see: could be all, could be none, could be a selected set (perhaps a special set of fake contacts). Whatever you choose, the app is told that these are all the contacts that exist on your phone.

If the app wants to access the camera, the options are: actual camera, always black pixels, a selected static picture, a selected picture that is shaking to add extra realism. Whatever you choose, the app is told that this is the actual camera.

If the app wants to access the disk, you could specify that a new directory should be created and the app would be told that this directory is the entire disk. Etc.

Re: We can't check the app permissions on Google Play anymore

#118
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I have a problem with Apple’s monopolistic control over the App Store, one benefit is that behaviour like this doesn’t make it past review. I’d love to see a button on the contacts permission window to give the app a list of AI generated fake contacts. (And fake GPS coordinates, and so on). Philosophically, your phone should be your user agent. It should act on your behalf, not on behalf of some tech compa…

Xiaomi's newer phones do have this functionality, albeit in a rudimentary form (only empty list is returned so the app can still detect it given how few people have empty contacts).

Hopefully they fix it so that "contacts denied" returns a large list of randomly generated contacts.

Re: We can't check the app permissions on Google Play anymore

#119
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What they really need to do is to simulate data for permissions that are rejected. For example, if I reject location permissions, then play back a random GPS trail in a randomly selected city on the planet, complete with simulated error and drift. If I reject Wi-Fi scanning, then show a constantly changing set of fake access points. If I reject camera, then play back some cartoons or deepfaked video as a camera devic…

Alternatively, refuse proprietary software. If the users don't control the software, the software controls the users.

I could if I was famous and successful, but until then it's really hard to get anywhere socially and professionally by refusing proprietary things.

I can't just tell all my friends to use Signal, it's just not going to happen and would result in me getting left out of 95% of social events.

I do keep a separate phone for proprietary apps, though.

Re: We can't check the app permissions on Google Play anymore

#120
post #87

There are still ways to get gplay permissions - e.g. see https://42matters.com/docs/app-market-data/android/apps/by_p... (note: i'm affiliated, but I believe it's relevant to the topic).

It would be interesting to look at historical data for permissions - what permissions are apps adding in the last few months compared to further back? Could make for some nice graphs and a blog post if you happened to have that data lying around :)

I expect a lot of crapware authors are currently adding permissions that they've wanted to but couldn't justify to their users, now that Google has stripped their users of visibility and recourse.

E.g. last time I looked at this a lot of obvious crapware was requesting the "ACTIVITY_RECOGNITION" permission for God knows what reason - a permission that can't be denied by the user.

As a rule Google only gives users the option to disable a permission after it has been widely abused, or maybe not even then. It's downright hostile to take away one of the only ways users have to spot spyware before they install it.

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