The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#111

Post by sumedh » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 8:53 PM UTC

breadloaf wrote: post #98

ido wrote: post #4

Ok let me make a probably very unpopular comment here: their 3rd point lists "companies benchmarking against all regional or global companies" but in fact what they mean is "companies benchmarking against the highest paying US tech hubs". I assure you "all regional or global companies" also include Vietnamese companies paying junior devs $300 per month - what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth pa…

Well that really depends. I was outsourcing to India when it was still cheap. I probably did something wrong, but I provided definition of the project, set of unit tests and access to git repository so they can upload the result. I got completely useless trash code, incoherent excuses and wasted time. I paid the company for their "work" and never considered outsourcing again. Sometimes cheap means horrendously expens…

How did you select the outsourcing company?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#112

Post by vultour » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 8:53 PM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #40

odiroot wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between UK and some of the Western-EU countries is already significant enough. No need to go straight to USA.

Not so sure, as a junior in the UK I got a raise moving to Spain of all places... from London.

Standard contract rate in London is ~500GBP per day, which is incredibly high compared to most of Europe.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#113

Post by ido » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 8:53 PM UTC

yrgulation wrote: post #103

ido wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s simply a Westen European country I lived in, sorry I never lived and went to Uni + worked in the Netherlands to give a more topical example. My point was that borders are unfair in terms of compensation not just to Western Europeans but to a lot(most?) other people in the world outside [west coast/big city) Americans. And that true globalization will equalize things not only upward.

Well austria is firmly central european. Dont worry, old tech will always tend to become cheaper. Once countries such as austria take the lead on new tech pay will follow. The us and uk have invested massively in modern technologies. Actually the uk started the trend with its industrial revolution and the us overtook it thanks to its size and dna engraved appetite for risk and innovation. To increase your pay, austri…

I haven’t lived in Austria in almost a decade, I simply used it as an example than salaries in Europe aren’t just lower than in the US but also higher than other places. Equitable pay means equalizing with everyone not just those above you.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#114

Post by ornornor » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 8:54 PM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #52

ornornor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corollary is that you live like a king in a country where people could be billionaires or they could be poor, desperate, with untreated mental health issues, nothing to lose, and a loaded gun. On the global scale, I wouldn’t say the US is a beacon of progress and happiness. It’s better than many bottom tier countries but far from top tier countries (which aren’t as liberal, for the most part)

What top tier countries? The US is the wealthiest country in the world by miles. It's had the highest GDP every single year for over 100 years continuously. That amount of capital is phenomenal, and part of why Americans enjoy salaries 3-4x higher than even Western Europe in most professional work - Tech, Medicine, Law, truck driving, etc. And that money allows you to work your way up, and buy your own property, etc.…

Yes on economical metrics. But in happiness, life expectancy, education, equality, prisoners count, literacy, and many other things that arguably matter more in life than $$$ then the US is quite lagging compared to other developed economies.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#115

Post by ceeplusplus » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 8:54 PM UTC

thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #21

seibelj wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A common criticism is that “but you get so much more for your taxes in Europe”. I have a counterpoint - you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. I’d rather keep more of my take-home pay and do without certain services, or better yet choose the provider (and quality / expense) of such services if I want them. Somehow the bureaucracy in the US is still massive, so I can only imagine what far higher tax rat…

> you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. Not really in my experience. You get to choose between providers in your insurance network, but I've lost count of the number of times my preferred provider wasn't in my network. On top of that, the insurance company has to sign off on many diagnostic tests even when my doctor wants to do one. I'm experiencing this right now with chronic pain associated with an…

> my insurance won't approve it without doing a full course of physical therapy first

This is the case in socialized systems as well. For example I need a monoclonal antibody injection regularly (MSRP $1500/dose) and in European systems I would need to prove that topical steroids and immunosuppressants did not work first before trying it. Just like Europe, I pay $0 for the doses, because the drug company has a program to cover my copay ($100/month) and the insurance company "pays" for the rest. No way the insurance company is paying MSRP, so that $1500 is definitely a fake price.

Also you have to consider that the US is subsidizing these European countries by paying for their defense. If France, Germany, and Italy had to pay for military expenditures necessary to defend against Russia then they would not have the budget to pay for such extravagant social benefits. European NATO countries have long been underfunding the military below NATO spending requirements.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#116

Post by jokethrowaway » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 8:56 PM UTC

Jacqued wrote: post #106

BossingAround wrote: post #92

Every time I see this article reposted, I feel a pang of sadness. It's this chasing of the SF salary outside of the US that is supposed to be the holy grail of every engineer in rich EU countries. Well, if you get hired by FAANG in Germany, you don't get the SF salary. My experience is that companies that do offer extreme salaries do not do so out of competition with FAANG (since FAANG does not compete with itself gl…

In my experience, this is mostly wrong. You don’t get 500-600k Silicon Valley offers in Europe just for being a solid engineer. You do get a total comp that is 2-3x local market if you manage to get into FAANG like companies and even the tier below. I think this is what Gergely is describing. That is still life changing for a lot of engineers, and worth the 3 month grind to get through the interviews. At least it was…

2-3x local market is doable even outside of fangs, usually with more flexibility (remote was a nice perk pre-pandemic) and no bullshit interview.

If you pair it with working via your own limited company and get your taxes down to single digits or low double digits you can make as much as salaried people on 300k - and with no equity that can go up or down (sure, and no holidays or sick days if you're the kind of person that does those).

Yet, even when you hit 200+k in EU, you're still left thinking you could be making 600k in SV.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#117

Post by sumedh » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 8:56 PM UTC

FredPret wrote: post #82

Dove wrote: post #66

I found this fascinatingly counterintuitive. I would normally expect that a broader market leads to lower prices for commodity goods. If I can only buy candy from the vendor at the movie theater, I expect to pay a higher price than if I can buy it from all the stores in the region, which I expect to be higher again than if I can import it from anywhere in the world. The reverse is true for developers? The companies w…

By this logic, the best deal for a good developer will almost always be to start a company

Getting contracts is a different skillset.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#118

Post by moonchrome » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 8:58 PM UTC

V-2 wrote: post #107

moonchrome wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Austria != Vienna, similar to how London != UK. Equating for standard of living (eg upper middle class) you'll likely be 3x in Vienna. Although I'm just guestinating on Gdansk, maybe it's a really expensive place.

I don't believe the difference is anywhere near 300%. Maybe 20 years ago. Let's keep Vienna for comparison, but benchmark it against Warsaw (also substantially more expensive than the rest of the country). According to the data on Numbeo, "you would need around 2,562.64€ (12,036.56zł) in Warsaw to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 4,000.00€ in Vienna". Making Warsaw only 1.5x cheaper. Gdańsk i…

OK - so roughly 2x. 1/3 was an exaggeration in reply to his 1/3 salary, but I actually did these calculations a couple of years ago and it wasn't that far off, I'm from Croatia and before settling down I considered moving to Western Europe. Turns out when I started freelancing and took advantage of low corporate income tax here (10% below 1M EUR/year and 10% gains tax) - the math for moving abroad never checked out - I made more money than my friends who moved to Germany/Ireland even before COVID, and it's just been getting easier with the move to remote working (that's commenting purely on cost of living/lifestyle I can afford - there are other factors to consider in these decisions).

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#119

Post by robocat » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

PakistaniDenzel wrote: post #58

thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. Not really in my experience. You get to choose between providers in your insurance network, but I've lost count of the number of times my preferred provider wasn't in my network. On top of that, the insurance company has to sign off on many diagnostic tests even when my doctor wants to do one. I'm experiencing this right now with chronic pain associated with an…

If you were in the UK you would get a PT appointment 6 months in the future and told to rest and take painkillers (which you buy yourself). Or you pay out of pocket for a private specialist to actually get help.

The situation in New Zealand is similar. There is an infinite demand for health services, so our public health system is busy, so you go on a waiting list. The UK and NZ spend about 10% of GDP each (~$4kUSD/capita).

The well-off pay for health insurance which will get you faster service, and the very well off just pay privately.

The first site I looked at for a private arthrogram was ~USD1050 (Single joint or region Arthrogram including Gadolinium) https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=mri+private+price+list+sit...

For more expensive procedures, some NZers travel to Asia to get medical procedures. The prices in Asia including flights and accomodation can be very affordable for the middle class, depending on what needs doing and how much risk you are willing to take.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#120

Post by seibelj » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 9:01 PM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #110

BossingAround wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not disputing what you're saying about your healthcare system, but if you get hit by a car, I would guess that nobody will be afraid to call an ambulance for fear of the cost. The same cannot be said of the US, where people with emergencies take ubers to the hospital. You might take an uber to the hospital in Sweden too, out of convenience, but not out of fear for being stuck with a $1000 bill.

> The same cannot be said of the US, where people with emergencies take ubers to the hospital. It's a bit ironic as a couple of months ago I had to call for an ambulance here in the UK when I found someone extremely unwell and they told me I should call an Uber and take that person to A&E myself, because they don't have free ambulances. Then at A&E they had over 3h waiting time for majors. You pay fortune in taxes an…

The anecdotes from supposedly-superior socialized medical systems in Europe always throw cold water on USA leftist dreams. The left here has been saying it’s a utopia for a fraction of the cost for decades. The reality is so much more complex.