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Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

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Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#111

Post by weberer »

shanusmagnus wrote: post #100
h2odragon wrote: post #49

One of the worst jobs i ever had, occasionally required us to drown some mice. Excess population / euthanized "feeders" for pet snakes. The method was to put several mice into a small wire cage, and then submerge the cage in water. Usually I filled a bucket with hot water, beforehand, and made this operation fast as possible. Dunk and done. One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy…

Once in grad school I went to a talk where another grad student was presenting on his fear research with mice. Many powerpoint details unfold of the hell he and his advisor had contrived to make the mice chronically afraid, and to be able to quantify the fear induced and its effects. I learned that when mice get scared enough they shit excessively. In the presentation of results he lingers on a graph, and says, for e…

I don't get it. Are you angry that he performed those fear studies, or just that he made a joke about it in the presentation? If you see the importance of the results gained from the former, you should have no problem with the latter. Scientists need a way to cope with their emotions as well.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#112

Post by Brybry »

albrewer wrote: post #75
h2odragon wrote: post #49

One of the worst jobs i ever had, occasionally required us to drown some mice. Excess population / euthanized "feeders" for pet snakes. The method was to put several mice into a small wire cage, and then submerge the cage in water. Usually I filled a bucket with hot water, beforehand, and made this operation fast as possible. Dunk and done. One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy…

Why not suffocate them with nitrogen or co2 or something?

Everyone agrees drowning is really not humane but nitrogen isn't approved either (rodents are not humans and so they might react to things like inert gas hypoxia differently).

CO2 is common in labs though lab rats/mice do show aversion to CO2 which is interpreted to mean that it causes distress. So there's been ongoing debate for 20+ years over how humane CO2 is and what the correct flow rate should be and if oxygen should be added (or not) or other gasses (or not).[1]

Something physical like direct concussion/blunt force trauma followed up by another method might be better[2] (needs more studying) but there's also issues with physical methods because they require more skill to do correctly (or tools/machines developed to negate the skill factor).

Also operators dislike physical methods compared to gassing[1] so what's most practical might end up the standard[3] even if it may not be the most humane.

I mean, theoretically if you could instantly crush a mouse, faster than brain/nerve signals can travel, that would be humane, right? But then a human has to deal with a gruesome crushed mouse.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035945/

[2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00236772221097...

[3] https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Guidelines-...

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#113

Post by concordDance »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #11
BlargMcLarg wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and Europe's population Where are you getting this from? Loads of countries are still rising in population, mostly due to immigration (birthrates of natives are below replacement rates). >and they seem to be quite well off. I wouldn't call Europe 'well off', unless your definition solely relies on "well, at least it is a developed country". We're facing multiple crises in several countries, and the younger generatio…

> Europe's population The growth rate has certainly slowed in the last 30 years or so. From 0.98% in 1960 to 0.37% in 1990 and 0.12% in 2020. But, yes, it's still growing overall. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/europe-popula...

Note that this growth is not driven by the descendents of those people who were in the country in 1960, but by immigrants and immigration.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#114

Post by posterboy »

taylodl wrote: post #85
albrewer wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not suffocate them with nitrogen or co2 or something?

My daughter got an internship at a research lab this summer - where they have thousands and thousands of research mice and they kill several mice every day. She said CO2 works on adults and therefore that's what they use. But CO2 doesn't work on baby mice and is considered inhumane. Instead they use scissors and cut off the baby mice's heads. It's to be done swiftly so it's like a guillotine. The labs are continually…

> But CO2 doesn't work on baby mice and is considered inhumane.

> Instead they use scissors and [swiftly]

oh snap!

Mice must have a high nervous conductance rate and as small as they are, what do you reckon how quickly it had to go through for there to be no impulse to speak of? (ask her!)

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#115

Post by redtexture »

weberer wrote: post #111
shanusmagnus wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once in grad school I went to a talk where another grad student was presenting on his fear research with mice. Many powerpoint details unfold of the hell he and his advisor had contrived to make the mice chronically afraid, and to be able to quantify the fear induced and its effects. I learned that when mice get scared enough they shit excessively. In the presentation of results he lingers on a graph, and says, for e…

I don't get it. Are you angry that he performed those fear studies, or just that he made a joke about it in the presentation? If you see the importance of the results gained from the former, you should have no problem with the latter. Scientists need a way to cope with their emotions as well.

Angry at himself for failing to publically point out and engage in discussion about the cruelty and terrorizing that was conducted, and well-understood by other science practitioners, and also the much of the audience present.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#116

Post by kibwen »

tonmoy wrote: post #108
rossdavidh wrote: post #61

It would seem like the more obvious lesson would be, "when in conditions very different from what that species evolved for, new and often serious problems will arise". Which is, no doubt, true and even relevant. But, since we evolved for conditions very different than rats did, I'm not sure how much more can be concluded. It does point out, though, the importance of being skeptical of any other scientific study done…

What was surprising is that the mice didn’t end up evolving some traits and instincts optimized for the new conditions. I would’ve thought they would learn new behavior after a few generations to thrive in the new environment. This makes me think that a post scarcity environment may not be enough to ensure the survival of a species

This is the fallacy of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". Sometimes, maybe even most of the time, adversity reduces strength rather than increasing it, especially if it happens too frequently and too severely. Evolution/adaptation works over long periods of gradual change, which is why the effort needed to survive, say, a global climate apocalypse varies widely based on whether the same amount of warming happens over 10 years, or 100 years, or 1000 years.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#117

Post by exolymph »

hanoz wrote: post #110
h2odragon wrote: post #49

One of the worst jobs i ever had, occasionally required us to drown some mice. Excess population / euthanized "feeders" for pet snakes. The method was to put several mice into a small wire cage, and then submerge the cage in water. Usually I filled a bucket with hot water, beforehand, and made this operation fast as possible. Dunk and done. One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy…

Why hot water? I would have thought cold or preferably lukewarm water would be more humane.

Dying quicker is better.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#118

Post by johnsimer »

h2odragon wrote: post #49

One of the worst jobs i ever had, occasionally required us to drown some mice. Excess population / euthanized "feeders" for pet snakes. The method was to put several mice into a small wire cage, and then submerge the cage in water. Usually I filled a bucket with hot water, beforehand, and made this operation fast as possible. Dunk and done. One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy…

Swap out the researchers with AGI/ASI robots and swap out the mice with humans, and you can see one of the many scenarios that cause people to be concerned about AGI safety.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#119

Post by protonbob »

badRNG wrote: post #87
jklinger410 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not vegan but I think about it all the time.

Same boat. I'm not a vegan, and I try my absolute best to avoid thinking about what we put animals through. It certainly sits in a specific category of intrusive thoughts. The only real analog to this in my mind is being aware of my own mortality; I just avoid that thought and shove it out of my mind. Occasionally my comparatively relaxed life is harshly interrupted by an awareness of these facts and I'm ripped back…

I am not a vegan but I think it would be useful for every meat eater to humanely kill and prepare an animal to eat at least once in their life. Having done so, I think I learned a lot about death and whether or not I was willing to eat an animal after preparing a few myself. I also think it is important to be aware of our own mortality and to think about it a healthy amount. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#120

Post by shanusmagnus »

weberer wrote: post #111
shanusmagnus wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once in grad school I went to a talk where another grad student was presenting on his fear research with mice. Many powerpoint details unfold of the hell he and his advisor had contrived to make the mice chronically afraid, and to be able to quantify the fear induced and its effects. I learned that when mice get scared enough they shit excessively. In the presentation of results he lingers on a graph, and says, for e…

I don't get it. Are you angry that he performed those fear studies, or just that he made a joke about it in the presentation? If you see the importance of the results gained from the former, you should have no problem with the latter. Scientists need a way to cope with their emotions as well.

I'm angry because if we agree that that work was important (not sure I do, but not the issue), then the sacrifice of basically torturing a bunch of animals to death in service of science should be treated soberly, with reverence. I'm kind of baffled that you think that I, or anyone, should have no problems with the described conduct.

A surgeon, while operating with all diligence and conscientiousness, may from time to time kill a patient. That's life, it's table stakes to having surgery at all. The notion that it's cool if she jokes about killing the patient to "cope with her emotions" -- esp in an auditorium full of people -- is just fucking ... I dunno what to tell you if you think that.

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