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Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

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Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#111

Post by schoen »

megalottachoc wrote: post #83
sathackr wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always said "if someone made it, someone can break it" Nothing is unhackable/impenetrable. period.

Darn right there. Is it can be opened with a key, there's nothing stopping something else emulating that key - even if resorting to brute force until the key pattern matches.

Can you make a lock that reliably detects pick attempts and renders itself temporarily or permanently inoperable? (Not that very many lock users would prefer this security vs. availability tradeoff over what they're used to, probably.)

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#113

Post by ramraj07 »

swighton wrote: post #44

Interesting design. I made a lock a couple years ago that is quite similar in principle (though this design is different and has a couple nice improvements). https://youtu.be/_7vPNcnYWQ4 One of my main goals is to be an inspiration, though if it was based by my design I wish they’d credit it. Especially since they’re patenting it.

You absolutely should sue them with prior art or something if they patent it. You had an amazing fairly well distributed YouTube video with this design anyway.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#114

Post by zeroonetwothree »

nemo1618 wrote: post #96
sathackr wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always said "if someone made it, someone can break it" Nothing is unhackable/impenetrable. period.

We've had theoretically-unbreakable cryptography for a long time now, particularly hash functions and encryption ciphers. There are still some weaknesses around timing attacks, and of course there's always the "wrench attack," but the algorithms themselves are as secure as we will ever need anything to be.

Outside of OTP no encryption is “theoretically unbreakable”. They all rely on unproven assumptions.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#115

Post by bryans »

upwardbound wrote: post #43

I don't know if this is too slow of an attack to count, but you could build an automated lockpicking machine that would iterate over the possible pin height combinations. If a fast robotic machine could input & test one key pattern per second, it would find the correct pattern in 12.96 hours or less. One pattern per second should be quite feasible. Here's an example video that shows how robots can move very quickly w…

Exactly. And based on the test mechanism simply requiring a ~46 degree turn to fail, I think it could actually be done in ~300ms per attempt, which would make the maximum solution even lower at ~4 hours. That's of course still a lot better than a traditional mechanism, which even brute force robotic pickers can tear through rapidly, but it's far from "unpickable."

Ultimately, even lengthening the time per attempt wouldn't help save it from attack, because not only is this lock susceptible to robotics, it's easily pickable with audio analysis. Much like the traditional mechanisms that this lock hopes to replace, you only need to analyze one to build a matrix applicable to all of the locks.

It's not unpickable, and the creator doesn't claim it's unpickable, either. So the title really shouldn't include the word.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#116

Post by kortex »

asojfdowgh wrote: post #7

I do feel that selective brute forcing is going to become popular one day or another e.g. a key with mechanical sections to actuate the pins to specific heights, plus, a very precise rotational sensor (perhaps acoustic sensors too) but anyways, potential but easily fixable methods: a magnet with enough force to pull the slider would give tension, so just don't make it ferrous the slider will always get super close to…

Drilling is tamper-evident though. The big win of picking/shimming is that it is stealthy and leaves no sign of entry.

Otherwise, just "pick" it with a Ramset, sledgehammer, c4...

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#117

Post by kortex »

bryans wrote: post #115
upwardbound wrote: post #43

I don't know if this is too slow of an attack to count, but you could build an automated lockpicking machine that would iterate over the possible pin height combinations. If a fast robotic machine could input & test one key pattern per second, it would find the correct pattern in 12.96 hours or less. One pattern per second should be quite feasible. Here's an example video that shows how robots can move very quickly w…

Exactly. And based on the test mechanism simply requiring a ~46 degree turn to fail, I think it could actually be done in ~300ms per attempt, which would make the maximum solution even lower at ~4 hours. That's of course still a lot better than a traditional mechanism, which even brute force robotic pickers can tear through rapidly, but it's far from "unpickable." Ultimately, even lengthening the time per attempt wou…

Those master cylinders are of specific dimensions, variable length and probably mass as well. I wonder if one could analyze the audio frequency spectrum, and/or mechanical impulse response, to deduce the length of the master and work out the bitting.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#118

Post by Retr0id »

LanceH wrote: post #97
bricemo wrote: post #28

I love how this follows the TED talk playbook: 1: “Here is a thing you are all familiar with” 2: “What if we thought about it DIFFERENTLY?” 3: “Here is the new yet intuitive way to think about it” 4: (Applause. Audience leaves with a easy-to-understand story to tell at cocktail parties) Great work, and very cool lock.

And, like TED, there is no actual implementation in existence.

Except, a (prototype) implementation does exist - and you can buy one (or at least, you can when they're in stock)

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#119

Post by ivank »

hangonhn wrote: post #109
elromulous wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1. LPL has disproven the claims of many "unpickable" locks. If computer security has taught me anything, unhackable/impenetrable claims, cyber or physical, should be met with skepticism.

I used to be huge Abloy Protec2 fanboy until I found out that they are very litigious, which made me wonder if their locks have been picked but the results were just taken down. I think they are still great locks. If anyone is going to break into my house there are easier and faster ways than picking the lock. However, the notion of an unpickable lock requires a lot of convincing for me to accept now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UZ6tcvgd9U

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#120

Post by [deleted] »

csours wrote: post #64
andrewflnr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your points are technically true but effectively vacuous, equally applicable to all possible door locks. Is there someone claiming that just because this lock is (allegedly) unpickable, it's a complete security solution, so that you felt you had to comment on the importance of other approaches to security?

No, I'm saying that people have an irrational desire for an unpickable lock, perhaps not having considered their security/threat model.

[deleted]
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