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Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

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Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#111

Post by olalonde »

hnews_account_1 wrote: post #108
olalonde wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for your interest, you just called a few recipients of the Nobel Prize in Economics idiots.

Thanks. I’d call them that again. But just for my curiosity, please, who is the econ Nobel winner shilling crypto?

That's a loaded question, don't you think? What I meant was that there are several respected economics scholars who have endorsed "hard money" and/or competition among currencies. Regarding "shilling", Milton Friedman didn't quite do that but he largely predicted a system like Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leqjwiQidlk

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#112

Post by hnews_account_1 »

kloch wrote: post #72
hnews_account_1 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a deep understanding of all of the latter. I work in capital markets daily. I do not know anyone serious with my level of experience in the actual markets who thinks bitcoin is the answer. There are several issues with tradFi. Pointing that out is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow. In some cases, people are working on a fix. In other cases, the inefficiency and criminal activity is not ceasing because the…

> For simple terms since you’re obviously not in the field, ask yourself where is money created? If you say central banks, go back to Econ 101 and study better this time. The Fed itself directly created 8T USD since 2009 (QE). Some of it in the past two years even went straight to consumer's pockets via the Treasury in the form of stimmies and forgivable PPP loans (helicopter money/MMT). https://www.federalreserve.go…

Also just to be clear, almost every measure of banking and economic crisis has reduced after the advent of central banking in most countries. 2008 still happens and we should hold everyone accountable etc but if you think living pre 1971 was some dream time with everyone eating a full meal and heavy technological innovation, you’re misguided. It’s not to say the lack of innovation was a monetary issue but removing those obstacles sure as fuck didn’t hurt.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#113

Post by snuckr »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47
hardmoney99 wrote: post #13

Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. Critics don't get it because they lump it together with "cryptocurrency". While technically a cryptocurrency, Bitcoin does not exhibit any of the ponzi, scam-like shenanigans that are easily observable in shitcoins. Yes, there is a lot of crazy stuff happening with wash trading - but this is a byproduct of lack of regulation and has nothing to d…

> Bitcoin is a financial freedom tool Usually when describing something in the face of scrutiny, one describes a use case. If someone questions the validity of hammers, the solution isn't to say "we call this a hammer." It's to show how hammers are used. I doubt most crypto folks have any idea of credit markets or central banking. What they have expertise in is the manipulation of money. Bitcoin, and all of crypto, i…

The use case is digital money that doesn't require banks.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#114

Post by lolsal »

tossl568 wrote: post #89
lolsal wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yeah yeah. Bitcoin is an open financial network that anybody can use and nobody controls and is secured by energy. What an amazing, historical feat of human ingenuity. It's neutral and just like the internet can be used by anybody. We're not going to apologise for its energy use. If you think the ends justifies the means, I suppose you could do anything.

Bitcoin disappearing tomorrow wouldn't make a dent in our current fossil fuel emissions. Bitcoin mining ASICs don't emit CO2. Take it up with policymakers who subsidize fossil fuels.

> Bitcoin disappearing tomorrow wouldn't make a dent in our current fossil fuel emissions. Bitcoin mining ASICs don't emit CO2. Take it up with policymakers who subsidize fossil fuels.

This sounds a lot like you're not contesting the assertion that Bitcoin uses lots of energy, but deflecting the issue by saying it is irrelevant that it uses lots of energy and it's more the responsibility of policymakers to make the energy it uses clean instead of dirty. Am I understanding you correctly?

I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue that mining literally emits CO2; the concern is about where the energy itself comes from.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#115

Post by jkepler »

Nursie wrote: post #26
hardmoney99 wrote: post #13

Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. Critics don't get it because they lump it together with "cryptocurrency". While technically a cryptocurrency, Bitcoin does not exhibit any of the ponzi, scam-like shenanigans that are easily observable in shitcoins. Yes, there is a lot of crazy stuff happening with wash trading - but this is a byproduct of lack of regulation and has nothing to d…

> Bitcoin is the solution It's the solution to nothing. Nothing. This is pretty hilarious though, Bitcoin is exactly the same as a variety of other cryptocurrencies, which are carbon copies of it. Identical. But right on cue here come the bitcoin maximalists to explain that theirs is special. Here's the only reason it's special - brand recognition. That's it. That's what you have over the various forks and clones. Fi…

Actually, what you call brand recognition could be monetary adoption, as every nongovernmental money such as gold or silver had widespread adoption on their merits.

Bitcoin solved the Byzantine generals' problem in adversarial network contexts, by its innovative deployment of proof-of-work. Thus, bitcoin invented thermodynamically secured property rights, and property rights are a fundamental building block for human flourishing. Bitcoin provides a decentralized trustless source of truth, and none of the other cryptos do that because they're not nearly as widely adopted.

Bitcoin is a strong base layer that faster more anonymous payments can be based upon, such as Lightning or Liquid, and things like CoinJoin and PayJoin, which are trust less and noncustodial. You can't start with a squishly base layer and then build stable systems, but if you start with solid fundamentals, privacy and better user experiences can be built on top.

Bitcoin is also currently solving the natural gas industry's problem of flaring methane... portable mining rigs use the methane to generate electricity to provide network security to the Bitcoin network, while making natural gas extraction cleaner. Bitcoin mining is also incentivising and paying for the production of clean renewable energy on larger scales than anyone had figured how to fund. And some people use bitcoin mining to provide home heating in the winter. No other crypto is doing those things.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#116

Post by nh23423fefe »

anonporridge wrote: post #107
tossl568 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does dollar indoctrination look like? Like asking a fish what water is I suppose. It's all we've known.

It looks like supporting two unwinnable, simultaneous wars in the Middle East that cost the country trillions and hundreds of thousands of humans directly and indirectly murdered.

Wars of retribution are the result of fiat currency? The thread gets thinner and thinner...

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#117

Post by anonporridge »

nh23423fefe wrote: post #116
anonporridge wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like supporting two unwinnable, simultaneous wars in the Middle East that cost the country trillions and hundreds of thousands of humans directly and indirectly murdered.

Wars of retribution are the result of fiat currency? The thread gets thinner and thinner...

Afghanistan was arguably a war of retribution, despite the fact that Saudi Arabia was closer to the guilty parties.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 if that's what you're trying to say.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#118

Post by ephbit »

ephbit wrote: post #70
hnews_account_1 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a deep understanding of all of the latter. I work in capital markets daily. I do not know anyone serious with my level of experience in the actual markets who thinks bitcoin is the answer. There are several issues with tradFi. Pointing that out is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow. In some cases, people are working on a fix. In other cases, the inefficiency and criminal activity is not ceasing because the…

> There is no wealth distribution in a hard money paradigm that makes sense. Care to explain how one can come to this claim based on first principles? Maybe I'm misinterpreting this sentence of yours. I read it as: a hard money paradigm will inevitably lead to a very undesirable wealth distribuation (Gini coefficient --> 1) and there's no way to fix/prevent this other than moving from hard money to soft money. I'd re…

My point here is: concerns with undesirable wealth distribution (in a hard money system) make IMO no sound argument against hard money. Because there's ways to redistribute wealth through the state.

Besides that, if the current wealth distribution (under non hard money) isn't all but a calamity, then what is it?

Also most states are currently doing effective redistribution of wealth so it's clearly something that can be done. One issue though in most states is that the redistribution is getting outpaced by countering effects, so it's insufficient.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#119

Post by ephbit »

hnews_account_1 wrote: post #101
tomputer wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except finance is extremely advanced. Exactly. This is a problem. It can be so advanced that almost nobody understands it. Now take a look at how advanced Bitcoin is: Total circulation will be 21,000,000 coins. It'll be distributed to network nodes when they make blocks, with the amount cut in half every 4 years. first 4 years: 10,500,000 coins next 4 years: 5,250,000 coins next 4 years: 2,625,000 coins next 4 year…

Your idea is KISS works for finance and the rest of humanity are idiots. As you sit down and type from a device created very much by the financial engineering “complications” of the modern market (and in turn being used to create further pockets of complexity).

> As you sit down and type from a device created very much by the financial engineering “complications” of the modern market ...

That's a ridiculous claim.

As if the development of complex technical devices wouldn't have happened without complex financial markets and inscrutable financial business models.

Complexity in finance .. up to a certain degree it may well serve the purposes of society .. beyond some level though, excessive complexity mostly serves few big players who can manage and understand the complexity and gain an advantage over other actors with less resources (that'd be most of the rest of society).

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#120

Post by ephbit »

hnews_account_1 wrote: post #104
ephbit wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no wealth distribution in a hard money paradigm that makes sense. Care to explain how one can come to this claim based on first principles? Maybe I'm misinterpreting this sentence of yours. I read it as: a hard money paradigm will inevitably lead to a very undesirable wealth distribuation (Gini coefficient --> 1) and there's no way to fix/prevent this other than moving from hard money to soft money. I'd re…

Good luck forcing redistribution using central authorities. The very reason for the existence of modern loans is to bypass their stupidity. You do not comprehend the literal scale of the problem. You have to replace every fucking bank employee with a govt employee (in simple terms). If you think a central body is bloated now…

> You do not comprehend the literal scale of the problem.

Phew, OK, if you write so.

> You have to replace every fucking bank employee with a govt employee ..

No, all it needs is a reasonable tax system without loopholes and where taxes are well balanced and of course reasonable services provided by the state funded by these taxes.

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