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Racism in Tech

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Re: Racism in Tech

#111

Post by k33n »

DanBC wrote: post #98
k33n wrote: post #9

I think racism is about as far from a relevant issue as you can get. Honestly, the people who get bent out of shape about it are just as backwards as the few people who are still actually racist. Edit: Since davidw is claiming that I think victims of racism are backwards, I'd like to clarify. I think that all victims of crimes and discrimination should be treated with respect and dignity by polite society (which far…

> I think racism is about as far from a relevant issue as you can get. Honestly, the people who get bent out of shape about it are just as backwards as the few people who are still actually racist. Haven't you just killed your company with this comment? Good Luck with any job interviews your company gives in the future. You appear to have left them open to claims of racist discrimination.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read in my life. Nope, haven't killed my company with a completely innocent comment made on HN. Sorry to disappoint you.

Re: Racism in Tech

#112

Post by product50 »

joebadmo wrote: post #77
d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

I have never encountered racism, therefore there is no racism. And anyone who thinks they're being discriminated against is a lazy whiner.

I have lived for 25 years in US. Never encountered racism ever - am from South Asian decent. That is saying something. Of course - there will be some people who will be racist. US, after all has 300M people and it defies probability that it will not have any racists.

However, generalizing racists and saying racism exists based on these extreme edge case doesn't make logical sense.

Re: Racism in Tech

#113

Post by [deleted] »

mck8 wrote: post #102
gizmo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the statistics (racism is real; white people are less like to be discriminated against or experience indirect racism) but draw the opposite conclusion. When dealing with issues of discrimination the point is to treat everybody equally, to treat people based on their merits and not based on the color of their skin or the statistics of their demographic. If we conclude from research that one race is more i…

It seems likely that k33n's opinion regarding racism in the world is, like most opinions, based largely on personal observations and experiences rather than a careful consideration of all available data. He does not observe racism to be a significant problem and thus concludes that racism is not prevalent or relevant today. You argue that k33n's race is irrelevant to his reasoning. Both of you are incorrect. We have…

[deleted]

Re: Racism in Tech

#114

Post by Kuiper »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #76
jhamburger wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not blaming them, racism is always unfair to the recipient but on projects I've worked on Indians have done absolutely nothing to combat it. By that I mean, they hang out together, they go to lunch together, they basically avoid any unnecessary communication with non-Indians. I ask them to go to lunch and I get a reaction like "um, we kinda go to lunch together." I understand that there are a lot of cultural barr…

I've taken the care to invite foreign engineers to dinner at my home at each job I take. In each case the comment is the same - "This is the first American home I've been invited into." Never mind they were 2, 5 or 10 years working in America. So don't blame them entirely.

I think that this may in part be due to the fact that the idea of "inviting someone over for dinner" is beginning to erode away culturally. Some of my best friends have never been inside my home, and visa versa. I think this is a large part of why establishments like bars, skating rinks, coffee houses, LAN cafes, and court clubs are so big in most of the cities I've lived in: a lot of their business is driven (I suspect) by the fact that they provide a neutral socializing ground, more than the actual service that they provide. When I think of the idea of "taking someone to dinner," the idea of bringing them to my house never really crosses my mind.

I've never lived out of a city with a population of less than 100,000 so I suspect that the social dynamic might be somewhat different there.

Re: Racism in Tech

#115

Post by joebadmo »

product50 wrote: post #112
joebadmo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never encountered racism, therefore there is no racism. And anyone who thinks they're being discriminated against is a lazy whiner.

I have lived for 25 years in US. Never encountered racism ever - am from South Asian decent. That is saying something. Of course - there will be some people who will be racist. US, after all has 300M people and it defies probability that it will not have any racists. However, generalizing racists and saying racism exists based on these extreme edge case doesn't make logical sense.

Have you considered perhaps that you're the edge case?

I've lived in the US my entire life. I'm East Asian. I've encountered racism.

Given two persons of minority descent, one who claims to have first-hand experience of racism, and another who claims that racism is largely a myth, why would I believe the second over the first?

Re: Racism in Tech

#116

Post by Spyro7 »

DanBC wrote: post #98
k33n wrote: post #9

I think racism is about as far from a relevant issue as you can get. Honestly, the people who get bent out of shape about it are just as backwards as the few people who are still actually racist. Edit: Since davidw is claiming that I think victims of racism are backwards, I'd like to clarify. I think that all victims of crimes and discrimination should be treated with respect and dignity by polite society (which far…

> I think racism is about as far from a relevant issue as you can get. Honestly, the people who get bent out of shape about it are just as backwards as the few people who are still actually racist. Haven't you just killed your company with this comment? Good Luck with any job interviews your company gives in the future. You appear to have left them open to claims of racist discrimination.

At the risk of losing karma, I have to say that I think this entire thread has really gone way too far.

Guys, this is HACKER NEWS. I thought we were supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard of conversation over here?

Could I just post one thing?

http://www.paulgraham.com/randomness.html

If you disagree with what someone writes, then you should reply simply and without embellishment. To conclude that someone has a "sick mind" or has "killed their company" is a bit much of a conclusion to draw from a simple online debate at a tech/startup discussion site.

If Hacker News offered the ability to lock discussions, then I am quite sure that this one would have been locked.

Can't we all just calm down and get back to coding?

Re: Racism in Tech

#117

Post by Jun8 »

kenjackson wrote: post #104
Jun8 wrote: post #47

I am fed up with all the bla bla around this issue. Really. Look, if you think there is racism in the tech field (let us define this narrowly as prejudices against blacks; prejudices against Indians and Chinese are, I think, a bit different), stop writing cute, angry blog posts; instead write about what the solution is and what you are doing about it. That there are too few blacks in the tech industry is a fact. The…

The problem is for this to work at scale you really need to make programming/entrepreneurship desirable for your African Americans. This is easy for sports and entertainment, because the stars are so visible. But who knows who Peter Thiel is outside of a very small niche. Vinod Khosla? And this is why I think the black incubators make sense. You can bring the idea of an incubator into the inner city and recruit young…

You are right. However, not knowing successful entrepreneurs (while being able to name 20 different rappers) is not unique to black high schoolers, so it's up to the mentor to create motivation and make these stories known, e.g. take them to the Social Network movie and explain that that guy in the hoodie is now worth billions, much more than Jay Z.

I don't know about the misguided part, but it's definitely not easier said than done, a lot of people are doing it (although juggling work and a kid is demanding). The response I'm getting from the kids is just awesome.

So, for ordinary engineers like me, the solution is simple: mentor those who you think are underrepresented.

BTW: it's a pity that in FIRST girls around encouraged much, most teams are more than 95% boys.

Re: Racism in Tech

#118

Post by tibbon »

irahul wrote: post #87
tibbon wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a certain degree, what you're saying is even true among people in the US from different regions here. Put someone with a deep southern mountain accent and someone with a Brooklyn accent on the phone and they'll feel at odd with each other. Surveyed afterward, they will both probably feel the other is stupid and didn't understand them on simple things. I myself remember my first experience with someone at a call ce…

> I needed to spell my first name (David) out to them using the NATO phonetic alphabet. Did you just say "Delta Alpha..." or "D as in Delta, A as in Alpha"? I can assure you the first one would confuse the hell out of most of the Indians(I am an Indian living in India). Some of the NATO phonetic alphabets would complicate matters even further - Quebec, Zulu, Yankee. Zulu is a special one, considering Z isn't pronounc…

Pretty sure I always go with D as in Delta, unless I'm on the phone with someone who I'm fully aware will know what I'm talking about (various friends, etc who will do the same thing).

They understood it well enough, but from my POV I was shocked, because never in my life did I have to spell my first name. I know in the US to always make a clarification of the spelling of my last name.

The normal line I give people in the US when they are looking up my account (perhaps at at bank) is, "My name is David Fisher, with no 'C' in Fisher" (since some spell if Fischer) and that normally does the trick.

You do make a good point however that just because the NATO phonetic alphabet is standard for NATO, doesn't mean it is something understood worldwide, anymore than I'd understand Kanji.

Re: Racism in Tech

#119

Post by potatolicious »

product50 wrote: post #112
joebadmo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never encountered racism, therefore there is no racism. And anyone who thinks they're being discriminated against is a lazy whiner.

I have lived for 25 years in US. Never encountered racism ever - am from South Asian decent. That is saying something. Of course - there will be some people who will be racist. US, after all has 300M people and it defies probability that it will not have any racists. However, generalizing racists and saying racism exists based on these extreme edge case doesn't make logical sense.

Racism is an edge case?

I've lived in Toronto, Vancouver, Seattle, and now SF - all diverse places by American standards. And I've experienced racism at every. single. one. Not of the pitchfork-and-lynching variety, but racism nonetheless.

I want to live where you live, where racism is an extraordinary edge case.

Re: Racism in Tech

#120

Post by jimbobimbo »

joebadmo wrote: post #110
ellyagg wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course that's not the claim being made by your parent. The argument is about how widespread it is and its effects. I'm pretty sure most people would find his story strong evidence for one side of the argument, assuming they believe it. I'm also pretty sure most people will choose to believe it exactly to the extent it agrees with their predetermined bias. As a white male living in a rural area as a kid and in metr…

This entire issue is crap. ...some BS issue that has no value. My only advice to "black" and other entrepreneurs is shut up, go code and make something awesome. This entire issue is being exploited to get attention for Angela Benton and her new accelerator. It's easy to tout self-reliance when you're a white male. It's easy to overlook all the tiny advantages you get that accumulate in an invisible, insidious way. It…

"It's easy to tout self-reliance when you're a white male."

"This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer..."

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