No-one knows what they are doing • Hacker News Board

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#111

Post by SilasX » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:29 PM UTC

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #100

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #77

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

I'm pretty junior in terms of YOE, but I hate when I see people say things like "don't worry, I have no idea what I'm doing and I have x YOE. You're fine!" to people on the internet. I have a decent understanding of what I'm doing, but I worked for it by doing exactly what you described in your last paragraph and then synthesizing that knowledge into an explicit process. If you don't know what you're doing you're eit…

Well said! I would add that, I’d you feel you don’t know what you’re doing, there’s a third possibility: you actually do know what you’re doing, in any meaningful sense, but your memory of your past work is dominated by the few cases where there wasn’t a clear right answer, and you made a call you couldn’t rigorous justify, even though you were doing most of the job very competently.

Those situations make it seem like you’re just shooting from the hip/groping in the dark all day … but that belief is wrong.

Either way, the right response to the feeling of impostor syndrome should not be to shrug and say “oh everyone’s like that” (which is how you get the Elizabeth Holmeses of the world); it should be to look for objective heuristics to identify whether you are, in the large, performing competently.

Edit: earlier comment on this issue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19214749

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#112

Post by websitescenes » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:38 PM UTC

Sounds like a complete lack of recognition for expertise, specialization and experience. Same attitude that leads people to distrust science.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#113

Post by bitexploder » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:41 PM UTC

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #100

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #77

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

I'm pretty junior in terms of YOE, but I hate when I see people say things like "don't worry, I have no idea what I'm doing and I have x YOE. You're fine!" to people on the internet. I have a decent understanding of what I'm doing, but I worked for it by doing exactly what you described in your last paragraph and then synthesizing that knowledge into an explicit process. If you don't know what you're doing you're eit…

I sometimes say it for fun, but yeah, it’s weird. I worked very hard over multiple decades to acquire specific sets of skills that are hard to acquire. It’s fun to plunge into something and maybe joke about not knowing what you are doing, but the reality is if you spent as much time as I have and don’t actually know what you are doing that is very sad indeed.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#114

Post by VoodooJuJu » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #77

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

I think this comment is a comforting fiction as well. Of course "no one knows what they're doing" isn't literally 100% true - it's just hyperbole. The essence of the message remains: the vast majority of people only know just enough to survive (and that's okay!). Survive well enough, long enough, and fortune may favor you.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#115

Post by twawaaay » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

I think the problem needs to be thought through separately for individuals and for organisations.

For individuals -- yes, no-one knows what they are doing. Most people, including successful ones, are too embarrassed or insecure to admit this. The world is divided into ones that understand this and ones that do not.

For organisations -- no, that is not true. Some organisations accept the above limitation and rather than ignore it, try to build systems that take it into account. My company does this -- CEO knows this, senior leadership knows this, we are working together accepting our individual limitations and trying to find ways to work around them. We hate internal politics and put premium on being honest about problems or capabilities.

Unfortunately this does not seem to work for governments. Governments is all about politics, all about image. It is not fundamentally incompatible with being honest about ones limitations but in practice very close to being so.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#116

Post by louthy » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #77

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

I think a better phrase is "everybody is winging it", because once you get good at something, then you tend to end up working on something that's at the edge of your current understanding, either through promotion or some sense of seniority in the industry.

This isn't necessarily true for all jobs, but I think it's especially true in the software industry. I've been a CTO for 17 years, but I still feel like I'm winging it. It doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing, I have enough experience to make good judgements; but to be the best at something you often have to be on the edge of your understanding at any one point in time.

I don't remember exactly when I realised that everybody is winging it (to one extent or another), but it made it easier to trust my own judgement, it made it easier to push for something I believed in, but it also gave me a sense of how little I still know - which helps me to not get too arrogant about my current abilities.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#117

Post by pbhjpbhj » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

bluefone wrote: post #94

ben_w wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given even just Johnson’s COVID history — banned unnecessary gatherings under penalty of fines with a large publicity campaign, attended at least eight of the at least sixteen unnecessary gatherings at No. 10 (including his birthday and a Christmas party), caught COVID and almost died from it, repeatedly asserted that there had not been any party and that if that no rules wrote broken, was fined for breaking the rule…

What's this fuss about parties and rules? If these are biggest issues you worry about, then your country is being run by some very good politicians who ensured that there are no other bigger problems for you to worry about.

That's an interesting take on subverting the rule of law. Most law breaking in Western Democracies by first ministers is probably not as obvious?

Johnson also, with the help of the Queen, unlawfully prorogued (ie ended the session of) parliament in order to avoid democracy acting against him.

He lost two previous jobs for lying (in politics and journalism; you have to try really hard to lose a post for lying in either occupation it seems). Apart from his handlers I can't see how anyone would employ him for any role.

He's very bright, his team manipulate the news/news cycle in similar way to Trump, and it's documented fact that he purposefully plays the fool.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#118

Post by pier25 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

shantnutiwari wrote: post #41

I dont know why this is getting so much hate, I agree with it. Engineer types want everything to be neat and tidy, well planned and thought out. But this doesn't work in the business world, which is messy and chaotic. If you can't live with th chaos, starting a business is a bad idea. (And I say as someone who had failed to start a profitable-compared-to-day-job business)

I agree. It's true for many things in life.

I don't think surgeons are winging it, at least in the operating room, but in life the majority of things are chaotic and unpredictable. Specially running a business.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#119

Post by tootie » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:54 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #77

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

I've been around some very successful people and execs at mature companies and you're sorta right but also so is the title. People with experience have more expertise than most people but they're also just much more comfortable making low-information decisions because they know they'll get away with it most of the time and they can recover from a mistake. There is a common misperception that they know exactly what they're doing when they really just know slightly more than the rest of us and are comfortable being decisive.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#120

Post by danieldevries » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:54 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #77

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

This is just an honest assessment of one individuals experience. I've heard it myself from my father who was at the top of Europe's largest corporation. He definitely is an expert in his field, but still had a healthy dose of doubt and was clearly honest with himself. Hubris is a far more dangerous imo.