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Web Push for Safari

developer.apple.com

111–120 of 143 posts

Re: Web Push for Safari

#111
Wow. I missed this a few days ago, but it seems like huge news for the web. Am I missing some important caveat or can web developers get excited about this?

Apple’s long resistance to allowing ‘web push’ on iOS has held back PWA adoption. And they’ve obviously never admitted it, but this policy protected the hegemony of the App Store, and therefore Apple’s control over the whole ecosystem. The absence of web push on arguably the world’s most important web browser (iOS Safari) was a feature for them. It constrained PWAs to niche, toy use cases - if you wanted to make a real app with notifications (like most apps) and you wanted it to be available to iPhone owners, you had no choice but to follow Apple’s technical and content restrictions and generally play to their fiddle and be very polite to them.

So with that incentive structure in place, I didn’t hold out much hope for the situation ever changing except possibly through some anti-trust thing.

But now it’s happening. Why? What does Apple get out of this move in return for the loss of control it is likely to mean for them? Can anyone shed any light? Perhaps it’s about staying a couple of steps ahead of antitrust suits they can see coming down the line?

The only caveat I can see is it requires a $100/year developer certificate. That doesn’t sound like a major caveat to me. That cost is nothing if it means you can build one app that runs everywhere.

I guess maybe Apple could still revoke your certificate if they don’t like what you’re doing with your web app, ie hamstring your webapp by taking away your push notification ability. But I’m guessing (hoping) this would be a very rare hostile ‘intervention’ compared to the common experience today of every app update being subjected to review by Apple and possibly rejected for arcane reasons.

Re: Web Push for Safari

#112
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we can have open source chat apps again. Only organizations can publish chat apps for the app store and it's resulted in a massive regression in IM app quality over the past decade.

You can, and still do have, opensource chat apps, and in app stores, too.

No, not in a useful way.

Either they're not free (which matters when setting up group chats) or they don't have reliable push notifications (because only the group publishing the app can maintain the push infrastructure (which is required) and no one is paying them and it's a lot of work.)

It is actually completely fucked. I've looked into dealing with it myself. Apple has pretty much single-handedly destroyed internet IM. Hopefully this starts to undo the damage.

Re: Web Push for Safari

#113
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can, and still do have, opensource chat apps, and in app stores, too.

No, not in a useful way. Either they're not free (which matters when setting up group chats) or they don't have reliable push notifications (because only the group publishing the app can maintain the push infrastructure (which is required) and no one is paying them and it's a lot of work.) It is actually completely fucked. I've looked into dealing with it myself. Apple has pretty much single-handedly destroyed intern…

> Apple has pretty much single-handedly destroyed internet IM

That's a bold claim when looks at dozens of messaging apps and hundreds of billions of messages sent daily

Re: Web Push for Safari

#114
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not in a useful way. Either they're not free (which matters when setting up group chats) or they don't have reliable push notifications (because only the group publishing the app can maintain the push infrastructure (which is required) and no one is paying them and it's a lot of work.) It is actually completely fucked. I've looked into dealing with it myself. Apple has pretty much single-handedly destroyed intern…

> Apple has pretty much single-handedly destroyed internet IM That's a bold claim when looks at dozens of messaging apps and hundreds of billions of messages sent daily

Yeah they're almost all siloed or they have the problems I've mentioned. The way Apple has decided app architecture must work forces this on everyone. I've spent a bunch of time (way more than I would have liked) looking into this and I've had this exact same discussion a dozen different times.

EDIT: I'm out of comment quota. Being open source hardly matters if the app is siloed. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to have decent XMPP and IRC clients other than Apple jerking their users around. (and before you bitch at me about leaving a socket open for push notifications using up battery, no. That's what the OS is already doing, it suspends the machine without closing the socket and reopens it if it's dead after the next wakeup.)

Re: Web Push for Safari

#115
post #111

Wow. I missed this a few days ago, but it seems like huge news for the web. Am I missing some important caveat or can web developers get excited about this? Apple’s long resistance to allowing ‘web push’ on iOS has held back PWA adoption. And they’ve obviously never admitted it, but this policy protected the hegemony of the App Store, and therefore Apple’s control over the whole ecosystem. The absence of web push on…

> The only caveat I can see is it requires a $100/year developer certificate

Does it? I know it did for sending notifications in Safari on macOS, but I think this time it does not. See [0]: "You don’t need to join the Apple Developer Program to send web push notifications."

[0]: The only caveat I can see is it requires a $100/year developer certificate

Re: Web Push for Safari

#116
post #10

I know I'm a bit tangential, but what are some actually useful examples of push notifications for browsers? Every time I've seen them in action was with spam/clickbait, after someone accidentally subscribed and couldn't remove it.

Personally I've found notifications to be really useful for applications which I don't want to install from external sources, but must still use for work. These include MS-teams, slack, rocket, Whapps, GMail.

Re: Web Push for Safari

#117
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple has pretty much single-handedly destroyed internet IM That's a bold claim when looks at dozens of messaging apps and hundreds of billions of messages sent daily

Yeah they're almost all siloed or they have the problems I've mentioned. The way Apple has decided app architecture must work forces this on everyone. I've spent a bunch of time (way more than I would have liked) looking into this and I've had this exact same discussion a dozen different times. EDIT: I'm out of comment quota. Being open source hardly matters if the app is siloed. There's no reason we shouldn't be abl…

Siloed, yes. Have the problems you mentioned, no.

On top of that there's the issue of at least some of the tech that open source likes to use. Prime example is XMPP which 10 years after introduction of the iPhone still didn't have a compelling mobile story [1]

10 more years later, and yeah. I think the lack of open source messengers is a combination of many things and whatever Apple forced is just a part of it.

[1] https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html In 2016 almost all XEPs references where in early experimental stages.

Re: Web Push for Safari

#118
post #111

Wow. I missed this a few days ago, but it seems like huge news for the web. Am I missing some important caveat or can web developers get excited about this? Apple’s long resistance to allowing ‘web push’ on iOS has held back PWA adoption. And they’ve obviously never admitted it, but this policy protected the hegemony of the App Store, and therefore Apple’s control over the whole ecosystem. The absence of web push on…

A few years back we had this same discussion orbiting around Service Workers. Here's a post from 2017 where the top comment argues that what's holding back the web is the lack of Service Workers in Safari: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14489577

Apple shipped Service Workers in WebKit in 2021. Are web apps much better now than in 2017? Frankly it seems about the same. The best web apps are still exercises in minimalism like Wordle, which don't need Service Workers or Web Push.

Re: Web Push for Safari

#119
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It loses the ability to open pages in new tabs.

You can make a HTML link open in a new tab by adding the target=”_blank” attribute. You should insert this after the link address.

I think OP talked about the app.

Re: Web Push for Safari

#120
post #118
post #111

Wow. I missed this a few days ago, but it seems like huge news for the web. Am I missing some important caveat or can web developers get excited about this? Apple’s long resistance to allowing ‘web push’ on iOS has held back PWA adoption. And they’ve obviously never admitted it, but this policy protected the hegemony of the App Store, and therefore Apple’s control over the whole ecosystem. The absence of web push on…

A few years back we had this same discussion orbiting around Service Workers. Here's a post from 2017 where the top comment argues that what's holding back the web is the lack of Service Workers in Safari: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14489577 Apple shipped Service Workers in WebKit in 2021. Are web apps much better now than in 2017? Frankly it seems about the same. The best web apps are still exercises in mi…

It's been huge for PWAs.
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