Dropping out is probably not for you • Hacker News Board

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#111

Post by bozho » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 7:04 PM UTC

super_mario wrote: post #38

bozho wrote: post #12

Agreed. But I'll just add one option that worked for me. I dropped out after the first semester. Then I found a job as a software engineer. In 4 years I'm a valuable senior java developer that everyone is trying to hire. Have I graduated? Yes, from the school of real-world software projects. I didn't have a startup business (well, I had one which failed, and I'm having one right now, on the side), but it was still a…

Yeah, and you will also NEVER be a computer scientist. You will never be hired by a team building a compiler, or a team building a database engine. You condemned yourself to a programmer title for the rest of your life, doing mind numbing business logic for the rest of your life (unless you decide to go back to school that it). Besides higher education is NOT about learning skills immediately useful for employment. I…

I don't see why I can't do compilers if I have to. I didn't take the "compilers" course in my remote study, because I wasn't interested. But when you reach a certain level of computing knowledge, you can learn anything quickly.

But anyway, I agree that "mental gymnastics", "stretching your mind" and "exchanging ideas" are very important things. And so I found ways to do these things. Yes, it's not the default case when you drop out, but as I said - if you have a clear vision how to proceed, including these important aspects, you should.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#112

Post by bozho » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 7:05 PM UTC

adbge wrote: post #50

bozho wrote: post #12

Agreed. But I'll just add one option that worked for me. I dropped out after the first semester. Then I found a job as a software engineer. In 4 years I'm a valuable senior java developer that everyone is trying to hire. Have I graduated? Yes, from the school of real-world software projects. I didn't have a startup business (well, I had one which failed, and I'm having one right now, on the side), but it was still a…

Recent drop out here. How did you find your first job?

I applied to 7 companies, got offers from 6 and chose 1 :) The thing is, I already had good programming experience and knowledge, so it wasn't that hard.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#113

Post by krschultz » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 7:06 PM UTC

padobson wrote: post #89

michaelochurch wrote: post #10

Thank you. Excellent article that needs to be read by everyone who's considering dropping out for "a startup". Let's ignore the complexities and focus on crude market value. A smart person with no college degree can probably earn $25,000 per year at 18. We're assuming a middle to upper-middle class background-- no special family connections-- and a reasonable work ethic. With a CS, math, or science degree from a good…

I graduated with honors from a top 10% university and it cost a heck of a lot more than $25k AND I've now been working for 3.5 years and I haven't hit the $80k mark yet. Only a small subset of the skills that I'm marketing right now did I learn in college. Furthermore, I'm doing better than a lot of my peers. Your numbers are suspect at best. $25k x 4 = $100,000 opportunity cost for college. $20k x 4 = $100,000 colle…

1) I like that you include the oppurtunity cost because people often ignore it (especially when it comes to graduate school), but you can go to school at night and that vanishes.

2) $25k x 4 is both high and low. It's low for 4 years at an expensive school, it is high for compared to going to a community college for 2 years and then graduating from more expensive 4 year place. My girlfriend went to a state school for a year and then a private school for 3, she definitely saved $15k in one year. That wasn't the plan at the outset but it was a result of the path she took.

3) 8% is way too high of an interest rate. Our loans are between 2 and 6.8%. I'm paying down the 6.8% fast, but at 2 or 3% it's almost free money once you include inflation and the tax rebate.

4) It shouldn't take 10 years to pay back

5) If you are making $25k and living outside of your parents house, you have no money left over to invest. Frankly the difference between $25k and $55k is the difference between sustaining yourself and building up wealth. No matter how frugal you are, it's nearly impossible to get ahead on $25k a year.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#114

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 7:15 PM UTC

conductrics wrote: post #59

yummyfajitas wrote: post #16

I don't think (2) is correct: You don't like to learn, and you need more money...Don't do it. Why? Because that stuff you learn you will need later on, and you will need it badly. Of all the stuff I learned in college, I needed very little of it. This includes many classes I enjoyed. Most of it I've forgotten already. Not only that, I didn't even take the traditional college -> job route - I stayed in academia for 8…

Isn't this kinda like looking back after running a search algorithm and saying "look at all of those branches that were explored that had nothing of value in them, what a useless waste." You have to explore in order to learn. College helps one learn both how your actions affect the external environment but also the internal one - your goals, utility function whatever you want to call it. What is 'needed' will be a fu…

No, because there is no reason to search through all the branches beforehand. A lot of things can be learned later on, as you need them.

Even if there was a need to search through the branches early on, I could reasonably predict that medieval literature was a waste of time. But 9 semesters of humanities were required by my college, so I crammed for exams and forgot about it after the fact.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#115

Post by matwood » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 7:16 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #27

kiba wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sleep deprivation. Drunk people. Final exam stress. Sleep deprivation and final exam stress is mostly our own making. If you use SRS and study regularly, I am sure the college life is no problem.

I would make it simpler than that. 1. Don't procrastinate and get distracted. Even if you're taking hard courses, a college course load is rarely more than 50 hours per week. Average in hard majors is probably 35-40 all-in. That's not onerous at all, especially when you're only working 40 weeks per year (including internship). 2. Concentrate on learning interesting stuff, not on the grades. Good-enough grades (3.5+)…

although I never had an unfair professor

I've only had one, and it was in a math course (something I'm usually pretty good with). First, he barely spoke english. Second, he just wasn't a good teacher. He even apologized the last day of class saying how bad a teacher he was and that everyone would at least pass. Nope, he failed almost the whole class.

I retook the class the next semester with a different teacher and aced it.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#116

Post by 0x12 » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 7:21 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #115

michaelochurch wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would make it simpler than that. 1. Don't procrastinate and get distracted. Even if you're taking hard courses, a college course load is rarely more than 50 hours per week. Average in hard majors is probably 35-40 all-in. That's not onerous at all, especially when you're only working 40 weeks per year (including internship). 2. Concentrate on learning interesting stuff, not on the grades. Good-enough grades (3.5+)…

although I never had an unfair professor I've only had one, and it was in a math course (something I'm usually pretty good with). First, he barely spoke english. Second, he just wasn't a good teacher. He even apologized the last day of class saying how bad a teacher he was and that everyone would at least pass. Nope, he failed almost the whole class. I retook the class the next semester with a different teacher and a…

Teachers like that should be banned from education for life.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#117

Post by 0x12 » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 7:24 PM UTC

amandalim89 wrote: post #110

Peter Thiel doesn't seem to think dropping out is such a bad idea. He set up The Thiel Fellowship to give 20 students Under 20 $100,000 to get their business ideas off the ground and quit school. http://venturebeat.com/2011/05/25/peter-thiel-pays-kids-100k...

That's a common misconception about the Thiel foundation.

Their main point is that they think that going into a multi-year debt in order to get an education is a losing proposition for many people and that because of that you might be better of dropping out.

The 20 under 20 program is for exceptional people, see #5 in the linked article.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#118

Post by contravert » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 7:33 PM UTC

hessenwolf wrote: post #70

webwright wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Passing college is cake. It requires very few hours of time compared to a real job-- it's a GREAT time to spin up a side business to see if you can generate/find demand for what you have. It's also a great time to experiment with co-founders. That said, necessity is the motherhood of invention and failure isn't going to sting THAT much. It's not terribly challenging to un-drop-out of college is it? Finally, I s…

Ha ha. That really depends on your Uni. I remember severe health problems due to the amount of study in my undergraduate.

I would have to agree. When I was working as a full-time developer (for internships), it felt like I had all the time in the world compared to homework and studying.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#119

Post by randomdata » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 7:35 PM UTC

vsl2 wrote: post #108

randomdata wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or from what university you're at, and what you're studying. I should clarify that it is pointless busywork with respect to a career. There's definitely something to be said about learning for the sake of learning and personal growth. Not having world class knowledge of mathematics is not going to hinder your wallet in any way though.

I think focusing only on programming skills and what will help you in your first jobs out of college is short-sighted. Being a college dropout entrepreneur may be some sort of badge of honor in your 20's, but unless you do something extraordinary or make FU money, its not something that will help you later in life. Will having that MIT CS degree help you get that lucrative job when you're 40 years old with a family,…

I think focusing only on programming skills and what will help you in your first jobs out of college is short-sighted.

I'm not sure this is even about programming, per-say. If your goal is success as rated by monetary gains, it seems short sighted to focus your learning on any specific subject ahead of time. You might find riches in programming, but you might instead find riches in producing a set of short Youtube videos, or maybe writing a how-to book about getting rich without going to college. Who knows what opportunities will arise? If your vision is narrow, you're going to miss them, that is for sure.

If you have a very specific goal of programming for a top corporation at the age of 40, maybe a degree will help you out. Again, who knows? You cannot prepare yourself for success. You might decide you hate programming when you reach 40. Who knows? Following in the footsteps of others will not lead you to success. That is one thing we do know.

I'm not arguing against going to college. I see that it comes with many merits with respect to personal growth and a is generally an enjoyable time for most people. I just do not see how it relates to business and why anyone would want to pressure someone else to go to college. Who cares what other people do with their lives? Whether or not one should go to college is a very personal decision and it is one that should not be clouded by misguided notions of future fortunes.

Re: Dropping out is probably not for you

#120

Post by 0x12 » Tue, Oct 25, 2011, 7:39 PM UTC

ricardobeat wrote: post #92

the success rate of the average first-time start-up is so low that it makes playing the lottery look like a good investment People love lines like this, but a 20% chance is a million times better than any kind of lottery. Even here in Brazil, where it sucks to be a business owner, recent data shows that +50% of small business survive for over 2 years.

Yes, but that's not 'small businesses started by drop-outs'.

If it were then the odds would be substantially less. People start businesses at all points in their life, and the failures skew significantly towards inexperience.