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Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

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Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#111

Post by enlyth »

mojuba wrote: post #57
gernb wrote: post #31

sounds like the same experience I have with pretty much every language I'm not used to. I just want to try this C++, download, unzip, oh it's windows so .project file. Fine, redo on windows , oh it's 3 versions of vstuido old and says it wants to upgrade , okay. Hmm errors. Try to fix. Now it's getting linking error. repeat the same with xcode and any project in c, c++, objc, swift okay how about ruby? oh I have old…

I think static languages are generally more disciplined and manageable in this regard. The only times I struggled with 3rd party Swift code was when a package included some C or C++ code alongside with Swift. Specifically, I think Apple's philosophy of "everything comes with its own dependencies embedded" saved us a lot of trouble. Sure, it's more disk space and potentially lots of duplicates (just count the number o…

I had a similar experience with Rust when I first tried it a couple years ago. Wanted to make a web server which returns Hello World, and then this crate doesn't compile, this official example from the README throws a compilation error, that crate is the wrong version, etc etc. I tried again today and got it done in 2 minutes, so it seems things have improved.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#112

Post by rovek »

kaoD wrote: post #88
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

> needlessly complicated IMO this is unfair characterization. If using Photoshop is driving, programming is building an internal combustion engine vehicle. You cannot expect to just randomly google for car-making tutorials and get an SUV done in a weekend. Heck, you can't even expect to be able to build a very simple combustion engine from basic principles without a lot of study. I'm not saying this is Aella's fault…

I feel a bit of this every time there are pushes to get everyone to code, it's very weird. Sort of related is the expectation that you should just be able to switch into a programming career in a few weeks. You can't do that with almost any other meaningful career but for some reason you "should" be able to for programming and there are very profitable businesses selling the lie that you can.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#113

Post by moribunda »

alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

This thread for me looks like a narcissistic attention seeking rather than real process.

She could simply start learning on datacamp - i went back to it after many years and it's perfect. Low level of entry, "box where you write python code and it runs", you don't have to install pandas, but course will teach you to do it if you want.

She began this thread from saying that she started a few courses... Hard to believe. Or she didn't wanted to pay for it to get them at a professional (in educational terms) level.

She wants to analyze her data - cool, but seriously, it's like any ignorant person would say that they want to do anything that requires some expertise... I want to build a car, why it's so difficult?!?! Twitter help!

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#115

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

donthellbanme wrote: post #36
_ZeD_ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in what scenario an amish farmer, a professional welder, or, well, anything but a programmer, would know anything about this "javascript" thing?

You would be suprized. I know a few people whom keep up on tech trends, even though it has nothing to do with their job. I follow programming trends, basically through HN, and self study. (I have wasted a lot of money on programming/Computing books.), and I'm basically a Jack of all Trades in life. I'm a mechanic certain years. I'm a contractor certain years. I'm a Electrician when I am very low on money. I'm a Watch…

As a programmer for my day job, I thought it was weird as well.

But then I realised I am interesting in things other people do as a job: cooking, CAD, gardening, wood work, music.

So people must be interested in programming as a past time.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#116

Post by aahortwwy »

alexb_ wrote: post #72
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

Was going to edit this in but it quickly turned into a related rant about the state of things: if you don't want that, scroll past. The real problem is that there's no more room for the technological "middle class". We've gotten to the point where you cannot be SLIGHTLY interested in computers, want to make a quick app for yourself, or make something small to share with the world. You either have to have no interest…

This just isn't true, though.

I have quite a few non-technical colleagues who know just enough Python to Get Shit Done.

My father (a writer) taught himself R for research purposes and is productive with it.

Universal Paperclips has a super-basic JavaScript codebase[0] but was a really popular game.

Thing is, if you search "how to do X in Python" you're going to get a bunch of resources aimed at professionals because they're the ones looking for that stuff most of the time. That doesn't mean the resources are prohibitively complex, they're just for people solving a different problem.

[0] https://github.com/jgmize/paperclips/tree/master/docs

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#117

Post by lelanthran »

ivanhoe wrote: post #47
michaelsalim wrote: post #8

Module resolution is quite a mess in JS at the moment. With the steady move to ESM, hopefully things will get better soon. In this transition period, it's painful. Even for those that deal with JS everyday, most don't actually understand the intricacies of CommonJS & ESM.

It's the thing with every tech ever, first you need to know (way to many) intricacies, and then the tools evolve and you don't need anymore... I remember having to fight sound cards and modems on linux once, or (slightly more recent) days of having to manually install and set up every single service for local dev environment, which basically required a linux administrator level of skills from a developer, plus a lot…

> It's the thing with every tech ever, first you need to know (way to many) intricacies, and then the tools evolve and you don't need anymore

In an ideal world, sure. In the world of software dev tools, not always. We've regressed from Delphi and Visual Basic that allowed anyone with some data to pop up an application quickly to use that data, to the current state, which every popular language in industry (and even some unpopular ones like Rust or Haskell) make it well-nigh impossible to do very simple things.

We've gone from empowered computer users writing programs to solve their own problems to helpless computer users who cannot write programs to solve their own problems.

Sure, you may point to Excel and derivatives, but those existed back in the 90s too, and VB/Delphi existed as an intermediate point between problems that are simple enough to solve in a spreadsheet and problems that need less than a tech expert.

Maybe this is why salaries are sky-rocketing: we've collectively made everything so much harder to get into that fewer people are able to solve their own problems.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#118

Post by alexb_ »

lionkor wrote: post #98
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

> the only reason this barrier was ever breached for this person was due to their large twitter following I feel like their approach to solving the problem actually does represent how most people deal with it - they ASK someone. There are hundreds of massive programming discord servers, with extremely engaged tutors, helpers, and resources. If you want to learn to program, you'll need guidance, and I think that's OK.…

Have you ever actually tried to do this? Programmers are extremely opinionated people. If you somehow manage to get past the barrier of "pretending to look smart so you can even ask a question without getting flamed to hell and back (hello, stackoverflow!)" you will be met with people suggesting different things, which quickly devolves into a giant argument about which thing is better and why this guy is so stupid for liking that thing over this thing and it becomes absolutely impossible to get anything done.

And again, there is a baseline expectation of knowledge that people have which is far, far too high. Even if, by some miracle, you get someone telling you to type "xyz" in the terminal, I doubt anyone has enough patience for the next question of "what's a terminal". This is the baseline understanding we need to allow for and the vast majority of tech enthusiasts, programmers, and others just don't get that.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#119

Post by BlargMcLarg »

alexb_ wrote: post #72
alexb_ wrote: post #63

This thread is also a good read: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345 Shows that a lot of people, ESPECIALLY programmers, vastly overestimate the competence of the average person when it comes to whatever they are an expert at. You may think that this person is silly - but that is tainted by your past experience of already knowing it warping what you think the baseline average knowledge level is…

Was going to edit this in but it quickly turned into a related rant about the state of things: if you don't want that, scroll past. The real problem is that there's no more room for the technological "middle class". We've gotten to the point where you cannot be SLIGHTLY interested in computers, want to make a quick app for yourself, or make something small to share with the world. You either have to have no interest…

If we have a middle class in tech, we also have the "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" pretending to be the top claiming everyone below them isn't good enough for something as simple as creating a few endpoints and vibechecking rather than checking skills.

And this extends all the way to the job market, where you now need 3 years of experience for a skill most people know how to use in about a week tops, and only lack the exposure of that skill used in a corporate setting. Where people will parrot "you need 3 months to not be a liability! (or more)" when those individuals will easily earn themselves back in the same timeframe. For projects where all you really do is create endpoints, process the most basic of information and expose it in certain ways. For reference, most people in STEM majors need to learn more difficult stuff in a shorter timeframe, with less help.

Re: Today’s JavaScript, from an outsider’s perspective (2020)

#120

Post by maerch »

qwertox wrote: post #89

This is exactly my issue with all this modern JavaScript / Node-stuff. The boilerplate just to get the simplest thing started is brutal. Now I'm dealing with some Vue3/Quasar/TipTap stuff, and I still don't know what exactly I have there, but just that it is working somehow. Python is such a pleasure to work with that I wish that all this modern web stuff were more like it.

Interesting to read your last line about Python after reading the top comment here with a link to this Twitter thread. (https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl/status/1522633160483385345)

The last time I tried to do something within the Python universe it was pretty painful as well. So I can relate to the Twitter thread.

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