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The Economics of Bike Lanes

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Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#111

Post by Jun8 »

pyre wrote: post #100
lazerwalker wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're mistaken in dividing it up into a cars vs. bikes/pedestrians binary. There are motorists who act completely inappropriately towards bikers, and there are bikers who act in a manner that is equally unbefitting. Both are a big problem, and the one doesn't justify the other. Personally, as a non-car-owning biker, it really upsets me when I see fellow cyclists acting like dicks. It makes it that much harde…

> it really upsets me when I see fellow cyclists > acting like dicks Too many people that drive cars ignore cyclists, and I think that the 'dick cyclist' to some extent stems out of the need to be seen on the road. I've heard people say that it's better to have a driver think you're an asshole, because at least that means that they see you. In general, I find it really odd that people in cars think that cyclists need…

"it really odd that people in cars think that cyclists need to watch out for cars and not the other way around"

But isn't it even odder that cyclists think the same thing about pedestrians? My encounters with the "dick cyclist" has always been when I was walking. Isn't this similar to what cyclists think about the "dick driver"?

It seems whenever people are in a position of "power" they become pushy, impatient, and careless towards people in a "lesser" position, e.g. drivers towards bikers and bikers towards pedestrians.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#113

Post by tomkarlo »

nitrogen wrote: post #54
davidw wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing that causes drivers to seethe with anger like losing whole seconds of their lives to happy people cruising along on bicycles.

The unlimited point-to-point mobility provided by a car allows people to optimize their routines almost down to the second, so losing 30 seconds behind a cyclist can make the difference between being on time and being late. Though this can be disputed, I would argue that aggressively minimizing time spent in transportation (and thus maximizing time spent at work or leisure) is beneficial to the economy and society.

Except for when they're stuck in traffic, which is pretty much the norm in any city on any weekday.

I used to live in NYC, and taking the subway, walking or biking was far more time efficient than taking a cab, much less driving your own car. LA wasn't really any better for driving, but the distances were usually to far for bikes, and mass transit was miserable.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#114

Post by [deleted] »

Daishiman wrote: post #62
fennecfoxen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist and a driver, I agree that there are far too many jerks who think it's fine to run red lights if it saves them a little pedaling... but the ones that really get me are people in dark clothing after dark with no lights or helmet pedaling up the sidewalk on the left side of the street behind a row of parked cars and out across an intersection at 15mph... who, when faced with a near-accident, rant about how…

Don't forget the headphones. As a very safety-conscius cyclist, I cringe at other cyclists who wear headphones or anything that artificially reduces hearing.

[deleted]

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#115

Post by bilban »

Daishiman wrote: post #62
fennecfoxen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cyclist and a driver, I agree that there are far too many jerks who think it's fine to run red lights if it saves them a little pedaling... but the ones that really get me are people in dark clothing after dark with no lights or helmet pedaling up the sidewalk on the left side of the street behind a row of parked cars and out across an intersection at 15mph... who, when faced with a near-accident, rant about how…

Don't forget the headphones. As a very safety-conscius cyclist, I cringe at other cyclists who wear headphones or anything that artificially reduces hearing.

Oh come on, you can't even hear audio through the headphones over the horrendous din of cars.

It's not like driver's don't cocoon themselves, listening to very loud stereos.

I've also seen many chatting on their phones.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#116

Post by tomkarlo »

Tangurena wrote: post #69
afterburner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if free means what you posit, it comes to the same: market pressures that make building parking garages so lucrative will provide the need if street parking is replaced by bike lanes. Also, reread the part about how creating a viable cycling path network, which is safe for the cyclist throughout, will attract many more cyclist to the road, as it has in other cities. The current number of cyclists in NYC is not n…

Parking garages are not lucrative. The cost to build a parking garage runs $20k-30k per parking space. Building one underground adds an additional $10k/space. In contrast, a parking stall on a flat slab is going to run only a few hundred dollars (in Denver, the cost for thick slabs you can park semis on runs about $800/parking stall).

$30K is not very much when you consider that a parking space in a dense urban area can charge $300-$400 a month, even while competing with free street parking. At $300, that's $3600 a year, or about a 12% return on your investment just from the cash flow alone (and the value of the space will rise over time as well.)

Double digit returns on a relatively low-risk investment aren't exactly bad.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#117

Post by adrianN »

protomyth wrote: post #112

On the economic side, are bikes registered and bike owners paying for tabs each year likes cars in NYC? It would seem that would go a long way towards paying for new bike lanes over parking.

Bikes damage the road orders of magnitude less than cars. Without having run the numbers, I'd wager that the city could actually save some money in the long run if more bike lanes would decrease car traffic.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#118

Post by eru »

localtalent wrote: post #63

This is not the place for anecdotal arguments, they aren't productive. Anyone can cite stories of bad behavior on all sides: sidewalk cycling, oblivious jaywalking, and aggressive driving. It's what every cycling article on Gothamist, Streetsblog, and the NY Post stirs up, and I could write out the comments myself and be pretty close to accurate. Nobody wins, and everyone leaves feeling angry - not useful. The articl…

> - Externalities (pollution, business impact, etc)

There are quite a lot of externalities in the quality of living. Compare living in the bike-friendly Netherlands to car-friendly US cities. I know where I'd rather hang out.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#119

Post by pyre »

ww520 wrote: post #106
alexgartrell wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue running red lights is stepping several feet over the line.

Yeah, it's more like miles over the line.

While breezing through a stop without even looking or slowing down may be 'miles over the line,' coming to a rolling stop, situation dependent, is in more of a grey area.

Re: The Economics of Bike Lanes

#120

Post by anamax »

pyre wrote: post #100
lazerwalker wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're mistaken in dividing it up into a cars vs. bikes/pedestrians binary. There are motorists who act completely inappropriately towards bikers, and there are bikers who act in a manner that is equally unbefitting. Both are a big problem, and the one doesn't justify the other. Personally, as a non-car-owning biker, it really upsets me when I see fellow cyclists acting like dicks. It makes it that much harde…

> it really upsets me when I see fellow cyclists > acting like dicks Too many people that drive cars ignore cyclists, and I think that the 'dick cyclist' to some extent stems out of the need to be seen on the road. I've heard people say that it's better to have a driver think you're an asshole, because at least that means that they see you. In general, I find it really odd that people in cars think that cyclists need…

> The person driving the car is the one holding the deadlier weapon, why are they not held to a higher sense of responsibility?

They are. There are insurance requirements for driving, licensing, etc. I'm unaware of any legal restrictions on bicyling on public roads (apart from staying off certain restricted access roads, typically interstates).

We can argue about whether these requirements are adequate, but it's absurd to suggest that they don't exist.

> I'll bet you that the driver wouldn't have called up to complain if the person she hit had been in a car rather than on a bicycle.

I'll bet you that they would have, because I've seen it happen.

Why are you so certain that it wouldn't have happened?

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