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Erlang/OTP 25.0 Release

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Re: Erlang/OTP 25.0 Release

#111
post #26

I've seen more than once recently an engineer saying that software solutions outside of the Serverless ecosystem (FaaS, DB, etc) is "the new legacy". And that cloud providers have solved all the pains that Erlang was supposed to address. What's your feeling on this? Elixir sounds very compelling to me, but I worry that I might be going in a direction that's not where the industry is going.

IMO people represent what they know. People also overestimate what “the new” is, constantly. Otherwise, PHP would be dead by now rather than flourishing. Serverless is essentially PHP in CGI mode, with a lot of marketing behind it. There are certainly places where it’s beneficial. Servers and databases are not going away anytime soon. They are simply too effective for what they do. The “everything is legacy crowd” ha…

> NoSQL crowd has largely died out.

yeah, that was rather curious. Similar to how XML died out. Not with a bang but with a whimper. Not that NoSQL or XML are completely gone today, just like PHP. But suddenly one day you recognize these topics are no longer appearing on HN or elsewhere. Then you realize you're getting old and... oh my god... we're actually stuck working in a fashion industry and nothing matters, life is meaningless, and all this is dumb dumb dumb.

When HN and other techies find a new hammer they end up beating that hammer against every problem they see. Right now it's SQLite. I love SQLite. But man. Can we quit talking about it for one fucking day already? This is probably how it felt to be an Erlang fan when Facebook bought WhatsApp. I remember the decades of Joe Armstrong talking about Erlang on Usenet and no one caring. It's just cargo cult with no thought behind it. WhatsApp was successful using X, so if we use X we must be successful. People have this perception that Python is new and modern despite being, relatively speaking, the same age as Perl. Erlang was cool long before WhatsApp. It's really quite old tech.

Re: Erlang/OTP 25.0 Release

#112
post #26

I've seen more than once recently an engineer saying that software solutions outside of the Serverless ecosystem (FaaS, DB, etc) is "the new legacy". And that cloud providers have solved all the pains that Erlang was supposed to address. What's your feeling on this? Elixir sounds very compelling to me, but I worry that I might be going in a direction that's not where the industry is going.

IMO people represent what they know. People also overestimate what “the new” is, constantly. Otherwise, PHP would be dead by now rather than flourishing. Serverless is essentially PHP in CGI mode, with a lot of marketing behind it. There are certainly places where it’s beneficial. Servers and databases are not going away anytime soon. They are simply too effective for what they do. The “everything is legacy crowd” ha…

> SQL databases are better than ever and the NoSQL crowd has largely died out

Especially with json types in Postgres for example. I can store data that’s suboptimal to use traditional databases to access (think complicated and varying form data) but retrieve it and reference it from table relationships traditionally.

Re: Erlang/OTP 25.0 Release

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO people represent what they know. People also overestimate what “the new” is, constantly. Otherwise, PHP would be dead by now rather than flourishing. Serverless is essentially PHP in CGI mode, with a lot of marketing behind it. There are certainly places where it’s beneficial. Servers and databases are not going away anytime soon. They are simply too effective for what they do. The “everything is legacy crowd” ha…

> NoSQL crowd has largely died out. yeah, that was rather curious. Similar to how XML died out. Not with a bang but with a whimper. Not that NoSQL or XML are completely gone today, just like PHP. But suddenly one day you recognize these topics are no longer appearing on HN or elsewhere. Then you realize you're getting old and... oh my god... we're actually stuck working in a fashion industry and nothing matters, life…

>Then you realize you're getting old and... oh my god... we're actually stuck working in a fashion industry and nothing matters, life is meaningless, and all this is dumb dumb dumb

Yup I know what you mean ! There is no zen. As I mentioned some time ago, the 'final zen state' is coding on a mountain top for yourself in a LISP with Emacs on an ultra book charged by happy sun rays :D - only somewhat joking here...

Re: Erlang/OTP 25.0 Release

#115
Are strings in Erlang rather inefficient? Or does the memory usage or string performance not matter in practice?

I have always ignored anything related to Erlang because I dislike the idea of a language that lacks an efficient string representation . . . even though I have spent over a decade using JavaScript! (so maybe I don’t actually care?)

Re: Erlang/OTP 25.0 Release

#116

Are strings in Erlang rather inefficient? Or does the memory usage or string performance not matter in practice? I have always ignored anything related to Erlang because I dislike the idea of a language that lacks an efficient string representation . . . even though I have spent over a decade using JavaScript! (so maybe I don’t actually care?)

There are binaries and strings. Binaries is what are used as efficient "strings" most often these days. Binaries allow matching, even building bitstrings (binary strings not ending on an 8 bit boundary). Even more interesting, strings and binaries can be combined in iolists, which is an arbitrarily nested or combined list of binaries or other lists. Those can be used for efficient IO and IO drivers know how to emit or consume those.

For additional details I recommend https://adoptingerlang.org/docs/development/hard_to_get_righ... which also mentions how unicode is handled. It turned out quite a bit easier because of how Erlang represents strings.

Re: Erlang/OTP 25.0 Release

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NoSQL crowd has largely died out. yeah, that was rather curious. Similar to how XML died out. Not with a bang but with a whimper. Not that NoSQL or XML are completely gone today, just like PHP. But suddenly one day you recognize these topics are no longer appearing on HN or elsewhere. Then you realize you're getting old and... oh my god... we're actually stuck working in a fashion industry and nothing matters, life…

>Then you realize you're getting old and... oh my god... we're actually stuck working in a fashion industry and nothing matters, life is meaningless, and all this is dumb dumb dumb Yup I know what you mean ! There is no zen. As I mentioned some time ago, the 'final zen state' is coding on a mountain top for yourself in a LISP with Emacs on an ultra book charged by happy sun rays :D - only somewhat joking here...

If its any consolation, i pretty much do the same, on a T490s in the desert, its actually pretty neat.

Re: Erlang/OTP 25.0 Release

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then you realize you're getting old and... oh my god... we're actually stuck working in a fashion industry and nothing matters, life is meaningless, and all this is dumb dumb dumb Yup I know what you mean ! There is no zen. As I mentioned some time ago, the 'final zen state' is coding on a mountain top for yourself in a LISP with Emacs on an ultra book charged by happy sun rays :D - only somewhat joking here...

If its any consolation, i pretty much do the same, on a T490s in the desert, its actually pretty neat.

:) It is the way.

Re: Erlang/OTP 25.0 Release

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO people represent what they know. People also overestimate what “the new” is, constantly. Otherwise, PHP would be dead by now rather than flourishing. Serverless is essentially PHP in CGI mode, with a lot of marketing behind it. There are certainly places where it’s beneficial. Servers and databases are not going away anytime soon. They are simply too effective for what they do. The “everything is legacy crowd” ha…

> NoSQL crowd has largely died out. yeah, that was rather curious. Similar to how XML died out. Not with a bang but with a whimper. Not that NoSQL or XML are completely gone today, just like PHP. But suddenly one day you recognize these topics are no longer appearing on HN or elsewhere. Then you realize you're getting old and... oh my god... we're actually stuck working in a fashion industry and nothing matters, life…

Between XML, JSON, YAML and TOML, I would rather my configuration files served in XML, with schema validation and graphical IDE tooling, thank you very much. :)

Re: Erlang/OTP 25.0 Release

#120
post #26

I've seen more than once recently an engineer saying that software solutions outside of the Serverless ecosystem (FaaS, DB, etc) is "the new legacy". And that cloud providers have solved all the pains that Erlang was supposed to address. What's your feeling on this? Elixir sounds very compelling to me, but I worry that I might be going in a direction that's not where the industry is going.

Serverless are rebranded CGI scripts for a new generation that buys into whatever developer advocates want to sell them this week.
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