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Ten years of trying to meditate

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Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#111

Post by frostwarrior »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #101
titanomachy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this stuff is actually pretty typical for folks who progress to a certain stage. I experienced it as well, if that makes you feel any better. The Buddhists definitely know about this, but a lot of their writing is pretty impenetrable and interlaced with weird metaphysics. Here's some modern, secular words on the subject (from the admittedly controversial author Daniel Ingram): https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table…

Yeah, it came as a real shock to me at first. I had made many mistakes in my early meditation career. But I learned a lot more and suddenly started progressing. This was wonderful at first. I started to feel and experience some pretty mind-blowing things on the cushion at first and then extending well off the cushion into the rest of my life. Then... I remember random memories started to kind of pop into my awareness…

Those are the kind of things that make me stay away from deeper forms of meditation and mindfulness.

Also, I'm not very fond of taking the traditional advice so literally. These sources focus solely on training new Buddhist monks, and most people doing secular practice just want some peace of mind while they continue their, productivity focused, western lifestyle.

We need to take these sources with a grain of salt and reorient our practice so that it cultivates more peace of mind without making us implode when the cultivated buddhist mindset creates a conflict with our western lifestyle

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#112

Post by Hasu »

vorpalhex wrote: post #105
Hasu wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's a coarse and crude method that isn't perfect, but the point is that almost no one that practices "secular meditation" has any problems whatsoever - there is simply no good evidence supporting that meditation practice is dangerous in any way. The vast body of research available shows mild benefits. The claimed hypothesis is absurd on its face. It's a wild and strong claim that needs strong evidence, so we d…

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32820538/ We don't have to engage in crude methodology. We have tons of research.

There's even more tons of research showing positive effects from meditation.

Meditation research generally is low quality, as is suffers from lack of defined methodology, lack of a consensus definition of what meditation is, and the general subjective experience of meditation. (Concretely, if you want to do brain scans on someone meditating, how do you know they're actually meditating? This extends to scans on people who are "experienced practitioners", how do you know they are experienced practitioners?)

Regardless, the vast body of research does not point to negative effects, most point to mild positive effects, and the medical field considers it perfectly safe for healthy people. If you want to use research, don't pick and choose the studies that find adverse effects, look at the overall body of research.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#113

Post by Hasu »

bowsamic wrote: post #108
Hasu wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's a coarse and crude method that isn't perfect, but the point is that almost no one that practices "secular meditation" has any problems whatsoever - there is simply no good evidence supporting that meditation practice is dangerous in any way. The vast body of research available shows mild benefits. The claimed hypothesis is absurd on its face. It's a wild and strong claim that needs strong evidence, so we d…

Is there good evidence suggesting it’s 100% completely safe?

There isn't good evidence suggesting anything is "100% completely safe", but yes, the vast majority of meditation research shows mild positive benefits for practitioners, and the medical consensus is that meditation is perfectly safe for healthy individuals.

It feels a lot like the goalposts are being moved here, the original claim was that meditation is extremely dangerous unless you're doing Buddhism right, now we're asking if there's evidence that it's completely safe.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#114

Post by bowsamic »

frostwarrior wrote: post #111
Enginerrrd wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it came as a real shock to me at first. I had made many mistakes in my early meditation career. But I learned a lot more and suddenly started progressing. This was wonderful at first. I started to feel and experience some pretty mind-blowing things on the cushion at first and then extending well off the cushion into the rest of my life. Then... I remember random memories started to kind of pop into my awareness…

Those are the kind of things that make me stay away from deeper forms of meditation and mindfulness. Also, I'm not very fond of taking the traditional advice so literally. These sources focus solely on training new Buddhist monks, and most people doing secular practice just want some peace of mind while they continue their, productivity focused, western lifestyle. We need to take these sources with a grain of salt an…

There aren’t Buddhist meditation practises that have no risk of causing this. Any meditation practise that involves mindfulness and concentration done for more than 15 or 20 mins a day carries this risk

I agree that the goals of Buddhism contradict the goals we have in western society though. That said, Steve Jobs was a devout Zen Buddhist, so he sat many thousands of hours of zazen

I do find it funny though when companies train their employees in mindfulness. It’s almost like they want workers who have less emotional connection with their work. As I said elsewhere, it’s all a matter of whether you follow the instructions. If you do, it will have adverse effects.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#115

Post by bowsamic »

Hasu wrote: post #113
bowsamic wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there good evidence suggesting it’s 100% completely safe?

There isn't good evidence suggesting anything is "100% completely safe", but yes, the vast majority of meditation research shows mild positive benefits for practitioners, and the medical consensus is that meditation is perfectly safe for healthy individuals. It feels a lot like the goalposts are being moved here, the original claim was that meditation is extremely dangerous unless you're doing Buddhism right, now we'…

No, the original claim is that meditation _can_ be dangerous unless you are doing Buddhism right. You are claiming that if meditation had dangers, it would be trivially easy to find data about it, and thus it doesn't. We aren't claiming it's always dangerous, we are claiming that it can be if traditional advice is ignored. You are the one shifting the goalposts. Re-read the thread and reflect

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#116

Post by bowsamic »

Hasu wrote: post #112
vorpalhex wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32820538/ We don't have to engage in crude methodology. We have tons of research.

There's even more tons of research showing positive effects from meditation. Meditation research generally is low quality, as is suffers from lack of defined methodology, lack of a consensus definition of what meditation is, and the general subjective experience of meditation. (Concretely, if you want to do brain scans on someone meditating, how do you know they're actually meditating? This extends to scans on people…

So you stand by the assertion that meditation has no negative effects?

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#117

Post by bowsamic »

taeric wrote: post #110
bowsamic wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m confused. Are you claiming that meditation might literally have no effect?

Not literally zero effect. But I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the effect is the same as how propaganda works. I take it as similar to inversion tables. Could it help some folks with their back pain? Absolutely. Does it do so for the reasons they put forward? Highly unlikely. (Acupuncture is similar. Homeopathy? Maybe...)

So you're claiming that it's mostly placebo? That is absurd to me. Why wouldn't sitting down and doing a specific mental activity for 30 minutes a day (e.g. paying attention to breath) change something? It seems very obvious to me that it would train the mind in some way. This is a genuinely bizarre take

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#118

Post by bowsamic »

feanaro wrote: post #100
bowsamic wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you not heard of the spiritual ego? Most practitioners eventually grow a big ego around their practise. Chogyam Trungpas book “Cutting through spiritual materialism” is all about this

Now that you've mentioned it, I remember hearing about the term but I always took it as a possibility, especially when misapplying practice, and not a necessary part of the path. My own path so far seems to be confirming this notion of mine so the things you were saying piqued my curiosity to learn more. Will I become more self-absorbed and grow feelings of superiority as I continue to meditate? I don't know. But I w…

It's an obstacle on the path to surpass, it's just that most people do go through it to some degree. For some it's severe: my old teacher told me about a co-student who solved Mu and then became extremely arrogant and left the sangha saying he doesn't need them anymore. For some it's much more mild

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#119

Post by bowsamic »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #101
titanomachy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this stuff is actually pretty typical for folks who progress to a certain stage. I experienced it as well, if that makes you feel any better. The Buddhists definitely know about this, but a lot of their writing is pretty impenetrable and interlaced with weird metaphysics. Here's some modern, secular words on the subject (from the admittedly controversial author Daniel Ingram): https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table…

Yeah, it came as a real shock to me at first. I had made many mistakes in my early meditation career. But I learned a lot more and suddenly started progressing. This was wonderful at first. I started to feel and experience some pretty mind-blowing things on the cushion at first and then extending well off the cushion into the rest of my life. Then... I remember random memories started to kind of pop into my awareness…

Yep, I've heard of multiple people with these exact symptoms. It's a very familiar story

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#120

Post by bowsamic »

titanomachy wrote: post #93
rebelos wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was your level of practice before going into the retreat? Did you go in 'cold'? What would you recommend for people who are considering it?

Pretty much cold, yeah. I'd meditated 10-20 minutes occasionally over a few years but never kept up a habit for more than a week. I didn't read very much on the subject either, although I did read Sam Harris's "waking up", which is what convinced me that a retreat was the best way to learn meditation. I'd recommend trying to find a place with qualified teachers. I went to a Goenka retreat (i.e. dhamma.org) and there…

I don't understand Goenka. It's an extremely intense experience to do unless you are very experienced. The total hands off approach of the "assistant teachers" is extremely dangerous. These retreats are more intense than most Zen retreats. Bizarre and dangerous
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