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A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

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Re: A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

#111

Post by BlargMcLarg »

mrsuprawsm wrote: post #104
imilk wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well my original larger point is that the city we're all discussing here is not walkable at all. And you can't make up for that by saying, "Well I know it's a 1.5km walk through identical rowhomes to the nearest pub, but the fact that you can bike there instead makes it the future of urban living." Almere looks to be a commuter suburb to Amsterdam, where no culture, events, or urban life of any significance takes pla…

I don't think anyone in this thread (at least anyone with experience of NL) is really in agreement with the parent article's point that Almere is particularly good. It's just an average-ish Dutch city. But even average Dutch cities are much more walkable and bikeable than basically anywhere else.

Bikeable, yes. Walkable.. arguable. If you include public transport with walkable, sure. I haven't found other cities to be particularly less "walkable" than Dutch cities when you take away public transport and bikes.

It really depends on what one considers "walkable" if anything.

Re: A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

#112

Post by todorus »

jltsiren wrote: post #88
calt wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just move bicycles from being grouped with cars to being grouped with walking, and you're correct. Dutch cities are designed for walking and bicycles. It helps that the bicycles are also designed for dutch cities. Upright, comfortable, a bit heavy and slow, and can be locked up for short times without needing to be locked to anything.

You can't design a city for both walking and bicycles. You can only make compromises between them. The slow Dutch bicycles are still 2.5x to 3x faster than the average pedestrian, which makes them convenient for distances most people would not consider walkable. If most people are comfortable with using bicycles over such distances, it encourages a more spread out urban structure. People often use bicycles in cities…

It is becoming very clear from your comments you have not seen the thing you're criticizing, bur rather argue from a paradigm you're familiar with. So I am going to join the chorus here and advise you to visit a dutch city, so you can yourself experience that there's more than one design paradigm that is valid, when it comes to urban planning.

Re: A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

#113

Post by jltsiren »

Mo3 wrote: post #107
DeusExMachina wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Amsterdam and I think he has a point. Many major Dutch cities are old, so they don't really work as a counterexample. Looking at new developments, like Almere or even the outskirts of Amsterdam, it's clear that they don't have the same structure.

Hello fellow Amsterdammer ヾ(＾∇＾) He was talking about a relationship between bicycles and urban/suburban areas. He’s suggesting that bicycles are a suburban phenomenon and that urban areas are focused on walking. I don’t know about you but that seems untrue to me

I meant that in the other direction. The speed and flexibility of personal vehicles encourage suburban development in the city. Cars created the low-density suburban sprawl. Bicycles seem to encourage moderate-density mixed-use areas where the services are spread out all over the area.

Re: A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

#114

Post by Mo3 »

jltsiren wrote: post #113
Mo3 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello fellow Amsterdammer ヾ(＾∇＾) He was talking about a relationship between bicycles and urban/suburban areas. He’s suggesting that bicycles are a suburban phenomenon and that urban areas are focused on walking. I don’t know about you but that seems untrue to me

I meant that in the other direction. The speed and flexibility of personal vehicles encourage suburban development in the city. Cars created the low-density suburban sprawl. Bicycles seem to encourage moderate-density mixed-use areas where the services are spread out all over the area.

Pardon me but doesn't that directly negate what you said here?

> Places that want to attract people must be close to each other in local centers, or people don't go to them.

Re: A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

#115

Post by _Algernon_ »

sandworm101 wrote: post #36

>> Around 60% of Oosterwold is set aside to support "urban agriculture", cutting the climate-change impact of food miles I don't see how this helps. An urban farm is not nearly as efficient as a true industrial farm. They don't have the economies of scale. They are limited as to chemical use (both pesticides and fertilizer) and have to deal with noise complaints. Urban farms are also, nearly universally, fed by potab…

Most importantly, transportation is generally a tiny amount of CO2 emissions of food production, iirc, and that is the only thing cut by urban agriculture.

It may have other benefits, such as greater degree of self-sufficiency but it does approximately nothing for the climate.

Re: A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

#116

Post by Vinnl »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #111
mrsuprawsm wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone in this thread (at least anyone with experience of NL) is really in agreement with the parent article's point that Almere is particularly good. It's just an average-ish Dutch city. But even average Dutch cities are much more walkable and bikeable than basically anywhere else.

Bikeable, yes. Walkable.. arguable. If you include public transport with walkable, sure. I haven't found other cities to be particularly less "walkable" than Dutch cities when you take away public transport and bikes. It really depends on what one considers "walkable" if anything.

I think the question here that might lie at the core of the disagreement here might be: what advantages do you think a 'properly' walkable city has, that a city designed for both walking and cycling does not have? (i.e. if walking is not a goal in and of itself?)

Re: A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

#117

Post by jltsiren »

Mo3 wrote: post #114
jltsiren wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant that in the other direction. The speed and flexibility of personal vehicles encourage suburban development in the city. Cars created the low-density suburban sprawl. Bicycles seem to encourage moderate-density mixed-use areas where the services are spread out all over the area.

Pardon me but doesn't that directly negate what you said here? > Places that want to attract people must be close to each other in local centers, or people don't go to them.

That was for dense urban areas where people walk instead of using a bicycle. If most people are comfortable using bicycles, businesses have fewer reasons to concentrate on more expensive central areas, as people can reach them equally well a bit farther away. The more mobility people have on the average, the more mobility the society will expect from everyone.

Re: A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

#118

Post by throwaway6734 »

jacquesm wrote: post #71
throwaway6734 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the Netherlands export their knowledge of handling below sea level engineering? With coasts around the world more prone to flooding it seems like it could be a lucrative industry

Yes, absolutely. Kansai airport and the recovery of New Orleans were to some extent (from an engineering point of view) a Dutch effort. For instance: https://nltimes.nl/2017/08/30/new-orleans-turns-netherlands-... One interesting bit about the Kansai Airport work was that the Dutch advised the Japanese to leave the reclaimed land untouched for a while (20 years or so) so it could settle, the Japanese ignored the advi…

Thanks!

>We're cheap, it's a local joke that copper wire was invented by two Dutch traders fighting over a single coin

lmao

Re: A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

#119

Post by quantumwannabe »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #96
Mo3 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have clearly never been to any Dutch city. Bicycles are priority #1 even in the most crammed and tight spaces, and thus the distinction between "urban" and "suburban" becomes completely mangled. There's simply places with less space (Amsterdam) and places with a little more space (Almere). Does that make Almere a suburb? Possibly depending on your perspective, but there is nil relation to bicycles. Now, of course…

I live in Amsterdam and I think he has a point. Many major Dutch cities are old, so they don't really work as a counterexample. Looking at new developments, like Almere or even the outskirts of Amsterdam, it's clear that they don't have the same structure.

Almere looks very similar to large parts of Florida, just with more town houses. Both look like master planned subdivisions with layouts that look interesting from the air interspersed with canals surrounding commercial areas.

Re: A Dutch city testing the future of urban life

#120

Post by MomoXenosaga »

imilk wrote: post #103
mrsuprawsm wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I love biking, but it's a bit shortsighted to think that bicycling in urban areas can replicate the same benefits of a city that is well designed for walking. That's exactly the point, in the Netherlands it can and does. Sometimes you walk, sometimes you cycle, it just depends on the context of your specific trip. (Are you going one place or many? Is the weather a bit cold today? Will it rain a lot later?). Both opt…

Well my original larger point is that the city we're all discussing here is not walkable at all. And you can't make up for that by saying, "Well I know it's a 1.5km walk through identical rowhomes to the nearest pub, but the fact that you can bike there instead makes it the future of urban living." Almere looks to be a commuter suburb to Amsterdam, where no culture, events, or urban life of any significance takes pla…

Almere is the Dutch equivalent of US suburbs I agree.

Obviously America is bloody BIG compared to the Netherlands and the distance between Almere and Amsterdam is smaller so you can use a bicycle. But the concept is the same: a place where middle class people with families live and commute to the city for work and entertainment.

Almere is a one off because Flevoland was created. We don't have the space for more Almeres- and thank God for that.

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