Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#111

Post by syshum » Sat, May 07, 2022, 8:41 PM UTC

happymellon wrote: post #105

syshum wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the ongoing problems with discussion about "unions" "Unions" in the US are very very very very very different legally than "unions" in EU and other nations, personally i think they are so different we need a different term for them... The closest we have to a EU style union would be something like SAG, or the other entertainment unions, which often referr to themselves as Guilds. The employment unions…

> which have ALOT of downside for even the workers in them. Do you have examples? As someone in the UK I don't see anything different between the Amazon workers Union and the unions here except for age and experience. They all just want to not be treated like dirt.

The big difference (and please correct me if I get UK info wrong, I am not an expert in UK Labor, I am versed in US Labor) that in the UK you have sector unions, not enterprise unions. A company may have employee's working under several unions, and I believe there are even competiting Sector unions that an employee can choose to join finding the union that best suites them

In the US, typically, the is a 1:1 union, enterprise relationship. If you want to work at company X, you must join Union Y with no options to join a competing union, no options to opt out, and no regress if you do not feel the union is representing your interests.

referred to as "closed shops" there is large amounts of corruption, favoritism, and other negative quality to many US Unions.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#112

Post by pkaler » Sat, May 07, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

Isn't this a good thing? If the workers were fed up enough with conditions that they formed a union, doesn't that imply the managers were terrible? Shouldn't terrible managers be fired?

For example, my wife is a unionized nurse. The best thing that could happen at her work is for her manager to be fired. The union has no power in that.

I'm an engineering manager at a software company. I get performance reviews twice per year. It's well understood that if I'm doing a terrible job that I will be fired.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#113

Post by vmception » Sat, May 07, 2022, 8:45 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #104

mynameisash wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I left Amazon (as an SWE), with about 11mo of tenure, I was apparently at about median longevity. Yes, some of it is their growth, but a significant reason is also that they churn through people unnecessary. It's ridiculous to me that a big tech company treats people so terribly and continues to get away with it.

Curious: Where do you feel the SWE people they churn through generally end up? I'm a bit concerned about this one guy on one of my previous teams who moved from Europe to US to work on AWS. I don't think he was aware of the company culture.

they end up at other companies of similar size, its part of the circuit, colloquially called FAANGs.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#114

Post by GoodJokes » Sat, May 07, 2022, 8:46 PM UTC

pkaler wrote: post #112

Isn't this a good thing? If the workers were fed up enough with conditions that they formed a union, doesn't that imply the managers were terrible? Shouldn't terrible managers be fired? For example, my wife is a unionized nurse. The best thing that could happen at her work is for her manager to be fired. The union has no power in that. I'm an engineering manager at a software company. I get performance reviews twice…

No post body was provided.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#115

Post by fallingknife » Sat, May 07, 2022, 8:46 PM UTC

klyrs wrote: post #42

kwhitefoot wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like US labour legislation needs to be scrapped and restarted.

Problem being that the ones interested in scrapping them aren't interested in replacing them.

Why do we need legislation? Formation of unions is protected by freedom of association in the 1st amendment. Not sure why we need another federal bureaucracy to intervene in the negotiating process. Not sure why we need the whole all or nothing union voting process. What if 33% of employees want to join the union? What if managers want to join? Why can't they just join?

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#116

Post by vmception » Sat, May 07, 2022, 8:47 PM UTC

pkaler wrote: post #112

Isn't this a good thing? If the workers were fed up enough with conditions that they formed a union, doesn't that imply the managers were terrible? Shouldn't terrible managers be fired? For example, my wife is a unionized nurse. The best thing that could happen at her work is for her manager to be fired. The union has no power in that. I'm an engineering manager at a software company. I get performance reviews twice…

that's an assumption. union existence should be tied to the perseverance of labor rights and collective bargaining power, not dissatisfaction.

its mere coincidence that there is a correlation to workplace/compensation satisfaction and interest in a union.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#117

Post by darkerside » Sat, May 07, 2022, 8:53 PM UTC

xmprt wrote: post #102

ISL wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If GP is correct, then that signal would be, "Treat everyone who works here more-fairly and address their concerns in a timely manner. It is in everyone's best interest."

> If GP is correct Only the Amazon higher ups will know this. Managers will see the correlation between unionizing and getting fired and connect the dots.

This seems like one of those optical illusions that can look either way. Duck or rabbit? What color is the dress? Young lady or old hag?

Managers are obviously fired because the union was formed. They shouldn't let another form. Are they expected to respond by creating a trustful and inclusive environment, or by ruling through fear?

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#118

Post by Zamaamiro » Sat, May 07, 2022, 8:59 PM UTC

joshe wrote: post #39

To me a more reasonable explanation than any in the article is that after losing the vote, Amazon looked into the warehouse and decided part of the problem was that the managers were making the situation worse. This could have been that the rsi injury complaints were true and unaddressed promptly. Or that the managers came off as cold in communications. Or 5 other things they could have done better.

I’m curious why this strikes you as a more reasonable explanation. It seems to me that you would need to make more assumptions to arrive at this conclusion than to arrive at other alternative conclusions.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#119

Post by Zamaamiro » Sat, May 07, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #77

sieabahlpark wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if it was literally covered up systemically at each warehouse where the issues lie? They're not omniscient.

> Not if it was literally covered up systemically at each warehouse where the issues lie? So, you think that they managed to systemically cover up their misdeeds from higher management before the election, but conveniently failed to continue that coverup after the union election. I mean, sure, you concoct a strained narrative which makes this a noble move by Amazon’s higher management, but...why strain to do that?

Yup. You need to make a lot of assumptions arrive at this strained conclusion. Why not apply Occam’s razor?

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#120

Post by thaumaturgy » Sat, May 07, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

pkaler wrote: post #112

Isn't this a good thing? If the workers were fed up enough with conditions that they formed a union, doesn't that imply the managers were terrible? Shouldn't terrible managers be fired? For example, my wife is a unionized nurse. The best thing that could happen at her work is for her manager to be fired. The union has no power in that. I'm an engineering manager at a software company. I get performance reviews twice…

Counter-anecdotally, a friend of mine is one of the leaders of the Starbucks unionization efforts in Oregon, and they adore their store manager. The complaints that are driving those union efforts are the result of corporate policies and in no way related to specific stores.

I can't say anything well-informed about Amazon specifically, but mega-corps tend to build lots of layers of middle management, then apply high-pressure incentive structures from the top that force middle management to do things that are unpopular with lower-level employees. When these policies inevitably backfire, it's the middle-management that gets axed for it.