Here's a novel idea: Don't live in the desert. Don't grow baby spinach in the desert. Let water prices rise to the extremes they need to discourage people from doing stupid stuff with essentially free water.
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Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet
111–120 of 248 posts
Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
CA water use is 50% environment, 40% agriculture, 10% residential. Maybe we should focus on reducing that 50%? It was nice and all when we had plenty of water to waste but it’s time to revisit those policies. https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/
Even within the already small residential slice, regulations are weird. When my parents lived in the LA area, they had a large swimming pool and an irrigated lawn but were required to have ultra low flush toilets. The amount of water saved by those toilets (which often required multiple flushes to empty the bowl of waste) paled in comparison with the government approved swimming pool and sprinkler systems.
Low flush toilets are absurd. You need the water to clear your sewer line so keep flushing. Utter stupidity.
Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep. You can look at this from an economics standpoint as well. We have run out of FREE water. If all water use in CA cost anywhere close to residential water rates ($8 / 100 cubic feet) there would be no shortage. Even a small tax of $0.01 per gallon would be a start in this space. We have exploded population and if you look at water projects (that actually deal with supply) have not done the same over 50 years or w…
> in a desert Why do so many people choose to live in a desert? It makes very little economic sense. Feels like it will be destined for failure no matter what silicon valley tries to pay its grunts. Any expectation of having enough water for such a low price is laughably absurd. The population of this state is literally asking for these conditions - they are choosing to live there.
People lived in deserts all across the US for tens of thousands of years and got by just fine and never had to pay a dime for water.
This isn't a desert climate problem, it's a "capitalism charging money for something that should be free" and "modern civilization having no concept of ecological balance" problem.
Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think forestry management is only a part of the story. New England has houses intermingled with forest, and we make very limited use of controlled burns. Yet, we don't have forest fires like the west coast. There are two big reasons for this: 1) It rains here. The forest floor is perpetually damp, which makes the risk of a fire starting and spreading much lower. 2) We have mature, native forests. The invasive Eucal…
Wait, seirously? People are growing Eucalyptus in a desert? That is one of the most mind boggling stupidity thing I ever heard of! It is just insane and suicidal to do that! Eucalyptus trees have 60 meter long roots, and use water at absurd amounts! In my country people only have those in places that rain a lot and have a ton of groundwater!
Not on purpose, hence 'invasive'
Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet
#115Here's a novel idea: Don't live in the desert. Don't grow baby spinach in the desert. Let water prices rise to the extremes they need to discourage people from doing stupid stuff with essentially free water.
> Don't live in the desert
Most Californians don't. They live in chaparral, temperate coniferous forest and mountainous biomes.
The idea that "California is one big desert" is pretty big misunderstanding, unless you think people should evacuate places like a significant portion of the Mediterranean (Sicily and Southern Italy, particularly), the pacific northwest and huge segments of the Rocky Mountain states as well.
They're also not the ones using the water.
Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think forestry management is only a part of the story. New England has houses intermingled with forest, and we make very limited use of controlled burns. Yet, we don't have forest fires like the west coast. There are two big reasons for this: 1) It rains here. The forest floor is perpetually damp, which makes the risk of a fire starting and spreading much lower. 2) We have mature, native forests. The invasive Eucal…
Wait, seirously? People are growing Eucalyptus in a desert? That is one of the most mind boggling stupidity thing I ever heard of! It is just insane and suicidal to do that! Eucalyptus trees have 60 meter long roots, and use water at absurd amounts! In my country people only have those in places that rain a lot and have a ton of groundwater!
Eucalyptus is invasive, but it's not like they're a significant percentage of water usage in CA. Also, they have't played even a minor role in any of the massive forest fires in CA/OR/WA/CO in the last few years.
The problem is that it is now too hot and dry for native forests in all those states, so they dry out and burn.
(Also, we've been doing fire suppression for 150+ years, and don't rake the forest, so there's a massive fuel build up.)
Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Those that lived in the area throughout that time (like my own ancestors) left almost no history for obvious reasons, Humans have lived in the basin where I live for at least 4000 years, and many parts of it are filled with thousands of bits of their pottery as evidence of their presence. I suspect that the Tewa/Pueblo people in general would be a little troubled by the idea that they "left almost no history" behin…
Artifacts are not history, they are items. The names, languages, and cultures of many native groups are completely unknown due to genocide and forced integration. I said that they lacked the trappings of what present-day humans think of as civilization, not that they didn't exist or have civilization, which I know they did - but they died out due to drought. Much of the time, they lacked resources for widespread acce…
>The names, languages, and cultures of many native groups are completely unknown due to genocide and forced integration.
This is post hoc ergo propter hoc. The history was lost because the Spaniards burned all the books, with the exception of stuff that was never written down in the first place. The Romans did plenty of genocide and forced integration but we didn't lose the history of their predecessors because they didn't intentionally destroy it all.
>Much of the time, they lacked resources for widespread access to fire, clothing materials, or sedentary farming
This bears little resemblance to the actual history of the Southwest, which was absolutely agricultural:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_agriculture_in_the...
and one of the few civilizations to independently develop the use of cement:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_Grande_Ruins_National_Mon... (e.g.)
They also made clothing not only from animal hides but from furs and yucca fibres. Native trade networks extended nearly across the continent, although mostly by local connections. Durable goods such as fiber could easily have made it to the desert. However, they did often wear little clothing, because it's damned hot in the Southwest.
Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet
#118It's not unprecedented. It's been a steady state that they have pretended was not a steady state. They are not "in a drought". They say drought in a way that implies that it is a temporary state that may return to a different, normal state. But it will not. They have reached a new normal of a lower water level. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-05-06/editorial-t... was a great editorial on this from last yea…
At what point should desalination plants be considered for agriculture irrigation in California?
> At what point should desalination plants be considered for agriculture irrigation in California?
When food becomes expensive enough, and water becomes expensive enough, it will be "economically viable" and done.
Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet
#119Unprecedented? Not really.
Historically the 20th Century was more wet than average. We got falsely comfortable with that level of precipitation. Worse that level of self-deception led to development (i.e., people and structures) that was struggling with water issues in the best of times.
It's unfortunate. But to call it unprecedented is painting a false narrative.
Re: Nearly all of the Western USA is in drought and it's not even summer yet
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't forsee a transcontinental water pipe going over well. I, for one, refuse to subsidize people who want to live in a dessert with my own water table. People should live in areas that can support human life.
Grow your own food then.
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