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Occupy George

occupygeorge.com

111–120 of 167 posts

Re: Occupy George

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd venture to say that the downvotes are coming from the very broad brush with which you're painting tens of thousands of people, few of which you personally know. I'd argue that the unprecedented unemployment rate represents a clear systemic dysfunction. These aren't temporary job losses due to the natural boom-bust cycle, a very large portion of these jobs are simply never coming back. Whose fault that is is hard…

Something can't be a "systemic dysfunction" while being the sole fault of 1% of the population, either.

Maybe I'm getting crazier and more radical in my old age, but I'd say that if the 1% can afford to buy/bend the system to their ends, then it most certainly can be systemic.

The fact that I hear Obama's "$1B war chest" being trumpeted and that Tim Pawlenty drops out of the Republican race solely for lack of funding reinforces what I've felt for a very long time - that campaign finance is the elephant in the room in terms of the issues that are bringing this country down.

Re: Occupy George

#112
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two very simple questions for you: 1) Do you believe it right that the financial sector was, and is still being, bailed out? 2) If not, how do you describe the system producing that result, if not "fundamentally broken"?

1) No 2) Because bail-outs aren't a fundamental property of "the system".

Bail-outs are a symptom of plutocracy, which is very much the fundamental nature of the American system (amongst many others).

Re: Occupy George

#113
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two very simple questions for you: 1) Do you believe it right that the financial sector was, and is still being, bailed out? 2) If not, how do you describe the system producing that result, if not "fundamentally broken"?

1) No. I also don't consider said bailouts the root cause of anything except one more instance of wasteful spending. 2) "Too busy fighting over local minima/maxima to ever escape them and make core changes, but as a result at least mostly harmless except as a drag force on productivity." We could argue all day about core changes that might fix the system, but we'll never agree on precisely which core changes to make,…

I'll throw two out there -

1. Campaign finance reform. Debate the details, but you can't debate that there should be some.

2. Vastly greater oversight/transparency, if not an outright ban of the current lobbying system.

Re: Occupy George

#114
post #103
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some illustrative charts from Business Insider: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-a...

Detailed charts presented clearly. Take the time to read this and you'll see the problem. The solution is not so clear...

What about a northwestern European model ? Equality through high taxes.

Re: Occupy George

#115
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the common outcomes I've heard called for is a "separation of corporation and state," in response to what people feel is an outsized voice in the democratic process for corporations at the expense of individual citizens. The backlash against TARP is a good example of fairly broad sentiment that federal policy favors financial institutions and high-value investors over "Main Street." Lawrence Lessig has spoken…

You should read this http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870426150457620... 99% of TARP has been repaid already. That's more than you can say about regular people paying back their credit card debts due to limitless spending.

No, 99% of the funds TARP paid directly to banks has been paid. However there was a large amount of money that went to AIG and other bailouts.

Re: Occupy George

#116

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

They're angry that success is rewarded with money. They'd rather failure also be rewarded with money.

Come on, seriously?

Re: Occupy George

#117
post #69

This is alarming to me, because this particular act is appears to be pure sensationalism to me. It also takes the numbers grossly out of context. When I saw the "Richest 400 vs Bottom 150,000,000" 50/50 split on one of the bills, my immediate thought was the following: __Do these people consider how many jobs these top 400 people created over the last decades, and how much better off the world is because they existed…

Let's assume for a moment that the richest 400 people in the US "create jobs" in some reasonable proportion to their personal wealth. Let's also assume that all of them disappeared tomorrow. Do you believe that half the jobs in the US would go away? Let's assume none of them were ever born. Do you believe the US would have half the jobs it does today? I hope you can see what I'm getting at. That aside, take a look at…

If OWS isn't outraged at the Tech Leaders, then they shouldn't generalize "the top 400" in this manner. When you abstract "the ultra-rich" into the symbolic cause of America's current woes, you're going to automatically incriminate those who do drive value-creating businesses as well.

I don't think OWS's purpose or message or mantra is wrong. However, if they continue down this path of generalization and polarization for the sake of PR impact, I'm afraid they're going to become even more unfocused in their messaging.

Re: Occupy George

#118

Can someone brief me on what Occupy Wall Street is trying to do? I can't quite figure it out. If they're mad about being unemployed, marching sure isn't going to fix their situation. If they're mad about government corruption, what exactly would they like done? If they're mad about the economy in general, isn't Wall Street the worst place to be protesting? I feel like the traders on Wall Street would be the first peo…

In a nutshell: Corruption and fraud in the banking system causing global economy collapse, the vast disparity in wealth, rampant corruption in politics and big corporations buying politicians with money, not democratic votes.

For concrete ideas, Matt Taibbi as usual really knows what he's talking about:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/my-advice-to-the-o...

However, it's important to remember that coming up with good solutions as well as figuring out what it really is the people want is really the job of the politicians. And just because they're failing miserably at that job, doesn't mean the general population suddenly has to know all the answers. I think the general message of discontent is very clear.

Re: Occupy George

#119
There is a lot of interesting research on wealth inequality in the US and around the world. For those interested in looking at data, I suggest the following as a starting point:

A historical database of top incomes in several countries: http://184.168.89.58/sketch/

A nice theoretical starting point on taxation and inequality: http://arxiv.org/pdf/cond-mat/0002374 Note that the term used to express trade in the first section of the paper could also be used to model progressive/negative tax rates.

Plots of the income going to the top 0.1% above a plot of the US top marginal tax rate (a proxy for the progressivity of the tax scheme): http://visualecon.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads...

The top 5-10% of incomes tend to follow a pareto distribution which has a very fat tail. If the share owned by the top 0.01% increases, so will the share of the top 0.1% and the top 1%. Conversely, the share of the bottom 90% will decrease. In comparison to the 1970s, the take home pay of the bottom 90% is probably 30% lower just because of these distributional effects, while the relative income of the top 0.1% has increased 5 or 6 times. The next time you see an exorbitantly high CEO salary, it might be worth wondering how it affects you. Likely, many readers here are in the top 95-99% for whom the effect is somewhat neutral.

Some argue that inequality is good for growth, and that a rising tide raises all boats, etc. But the literature regarding the correlation between GINI coefficients and long-term growth is weak and not conclusive. When I looked at the data from the income database cited above, I could see little correlation for developed and undeveloped countries. I seem to remember reading an MIT thesis to the same effect.

Perfect redistribution and equality would obviously eliminate economic incentives for growth. Near-perfect inequality, might have the same result. The very small fraction of the population in which wealth has condensed would be economically motivated, but the rest of the population that is living on the welfare state (e.g. welfare, minimum wage + EITC) would have a reduced incentive to earn more. A detailed analysis of the EITC is interesting, but peripheral to my point.

Furthermore, when inequality varies like a power law, it is easy to see that a rising tide with reduced Pareto coefficient (increased inequality) could lead to a worse outcome for the majority.

The obvious way to address inequality is through progressive or redistributive taxation. The theoretical paper linked above shows how increasing progressivity reduces inequality, but this result is also intuitive. With a 100% redistributive tax, one would have perfect equality.

Increasing income tax progressivity alters financial incentives and creates incentives for small business and corporations that target the (more affluent) majority. By contrast, flat or regressive taxes alter the economics to favour larger customers. There is a related but much more complex story for international taxation. When corporations accumulate their income in corporate tax havens and then repatriate that income during a "tax holiday", the result is a highly regressive tax system.

Many argue about addressing inequality through "job creation" and "big government projects". I don't have a story related to this, but the Canadian data I have looked at makes me a little suspicious. I guess when you inject funds at a single point in the economy (e.g. corporation) and then allow it to trickle down to employees, portions of those funds would be funnelled off at every level of the corporation and the net result may be an increase in inequality. However, if that corporation is performing a valuable social service to the public, then that may mitigate the inequality.

I guess my main point is that the story of income inequality is a complex one that is closely related to taxation. As such, it is a policy choice of the government and the people who elect them. If the "99%" feel that they are not satisfied with the deal that has been struck, then they can voice their opinion in the hope that the government will alter that deal.

Re: Occupy George

#120
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something can't be a "systemic dysfunction" while being the sole fault of 1% of the population, either.

Maybe I'm getting crazier and more radical in my old age, but I'd say that if the 1% can afford to buy/bend the system to their ends, then it most certainly can be systemic. The fact that I hear Obama's "$1B war chest" being trumpeted and that Tim Pawlenty drops out of the Republican race solely for lack of funding reinforces what I've felt for a very long time - that campaign finance is the elephant in the room in t…

In this particular case, the housing and higher education bubbles required significant proportions of the population to buy into them. Bubbles that do little but draw poor investment from the already wealthy aren't as problematic.
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