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Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#111

Post by gerrys0 »

ig1 wrote: post #108
pedrolll wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this based on? For someone living in Finland, this seems very far from the truth.

http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_tyoelama_en.html The education sector in Finland employs a disproportionately large number of professionals compared to many other countries. In comparison a male graduate in the uk chosen at random is more likely to be a software developer than a teacher.

I find that hard to believe, but even if true, so what? There are about half as many teachers in the US as there should be right now.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#112

Post by gerrys0 »

nhebb wrote: post #60

It's funny that the article starts off criticizing standardized testing but immediately turns to international standardized test results (PISA) as the foundation for the rest of the article. It could well be that Finland has a better educational system, but - playing devil's advocate here - how do we know that it's not just (inadvertently) optimized for the PISA?

Well, to quote from this article about Finland (which another commenter has linked to)

"Some testing is thus ultimately necessary, Louhivuori conceded, if only to prove that regular testing is not."

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/82329/education-reform-F...

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#113

Post by gerrys0 »

mbyrne wrote: post #54
Osiris wrote: post #2

This article contrasts well with the failure of No Child Left Behind in the U.S. That program has failed to deliver any statistically significant impact on the skills and knowledge of students. What is has done is pushed teachers towards teaching the test rather than teaching critical thinking. Standardized tests are multiple-choice questions and don't leave room for critical thinking, or help demonstration how a chi…

If you say No Child Left Behind pushed teachers to teach to a test (easy) rather than teaching critical thinking, etc. (hard) and then you say No Child Left Behind failed to deliver any statistically significant impact on test scores, aren't you just saying teachers can't even teach the easy stuff? How do you think they can teach the hard stuff if they can't even move the needle on the easy things (in this scenario o…

Yes, teaching to a test should be easy, and it is easy to your median 15-year-old. The gigantic problem with NCLB - and something I've not seen mentioned in this HN story - is that NCLB is a one-size-fits-all mandate, and there is NOTHING about education in the US or anywhere that is one-size-fits-all. Hundreds of factors influence the raw material (children) that teachers have to work with every day.

Countries like Finland do not try to graduate all of their children in the same way. 43% of Finland's HS graduates graduate from vocational schools (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands...). The US has slowly moved further and further away from this type of "tracking" since the 70's. Things like NCLB and the over-valued notion of a college degree has only accelerated this problem. I am not optimistic.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#114

Post by henrikschroder »

joesb wrote: post #107
henrikschroder wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about?

> The only part of education where the language matters is when it comes to spelling What about differences between languages in their ability to convey ideas.

We're talking about elementary school education here, I find it extremely difficult to believe that some languages are "better" than others at conveying the ideas at this level of education.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#115

Post by ig1 »

gerrys0 wrote: post #111
ig1 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_tyoelama_en.html The education sector in Finland employs a disproportionately large number of professionals compared to many other countries. In comparison a male graduate in the uk chosen at random is more likely to be a software developer than a teacher.

I find that hard to believe, but even if true, so what? There are about half as many teachers in the US as there should be right now.

Competition for the top graduates is incredibly tough in many countries. In many countries the education system can't compete with the private sector (in terms of salaries and opportunities) in hiring the best, in Finland the competition is smaller due to fewer opportunities existing for top-tier graduates so they can afford to hire them.

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#116

Post by DilipJ »

wmoxam wrote: post #110
DilipJ wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is far less diverse than the US. Canada is about 90% white, the US is about 68% white. And most minorities in Canada are screened for education/intelligence before arrival, whereas in the US most minorities are a byproduct of the transatlantic slave trade/illegal immigration

I guess it depends on what you consider 'diverse'. You seem to only consider skin colour. Besides, Canada is more like 80% 'white' vs 72% in the US. An interesting tidbit you may not know is that less then 60% of Canadians speak English as their mother tongue, vs 82% in the US.

Right, but a majority of those non-English speakers in Canada are in Quebec speaking French. I can't imagine there's that much of an IQ difference between French- and Anglo-Canadians...

Re: Why Finland’s schools are great (by doing what we don’t).

#117

Post by wmoxam »

DilipJ wrote: post #116
wmoxam wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on what you consider 'diverse'. You seem to only consider skin colour. Besides, Canada is more like 80% 'white' vs 72% in the US. An interesting tidbit you may not know is that less then 60% of Canadians speak English as their mother tongue, vs 82% in the US.

Right, but a majority of those non-English speakers in Canada are in Quebec speaking French. I can't imagine there's that much of an IQ difference between French- and Anglo-Canadians...

Actually the non-english speakers are split evenly between french speakers, and speakers of other languages.

The discussion was about diversity (and the imagined lack thereof in Canada), not about IQ ...

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