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Food Packaging

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Re: Food Packaging

#111

Post by 9dev »

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #105
9dev wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reference, this is what we do with beer bottles in Germany. There’s two standard bottle types which you can return to shops, which take any brand, as long as it’s the standard type. They return them to a cleaning facility which distributes them back to the breweries (extremely simplified, there’s lots of details like a mandatory deposit on reusable bottles consumers pay to incentivise returning them to stores). B…

Nopetynope. I don't remember where exactly anymore because I rarely buy beer, but I think it was Lidl where I returned some Tsingtao bottles and heard the machine crushing them, thinking WTF?! Edit: I know this isn't true for every glass bottle, but it happens. There are one way glass bottles in .de Which you still have to return, to get the 8 or 15 cents(don't know exactly) back if you care.

Yeah, there are some intricacies as I said, didn't want to turn this into a long-form essay (because that's what you need to describe anything formalised in Germany). Lidl doesn't participate in the bottle sharing initiative as far as I know for example; differently-shaped, one-way bottles are definitely a thing; and sometimes, there are deposit machines that for some reason don't accept a local brewery, although they should.

But all in all, this system definitely ensures at least a big part of German bottles are actually reused multiple times.

Re: Food Packaging

#112

Post by jhugo »

thomasguide wrote: post #97
KennyBlanken wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sound you heard was me rolling my eyes at the bunch of nonsense they started off with, which seemed sucked straight from the mouth of a plastics industry PR lackey. The squeeze nipple thingy is pretty brilliant, but an ecological disaster.

As a cook I find the squeeze actually sort of frustrating. Sometimes it usefully delivers the right amount of ketchup (or mustard, or whatever) to its destination; mostly it splatters. In any case I still have to use a knife to spread it around. Solving the leaky bottle upside down problem is too narrow a focus.

The trick is to give the bottle a vigorous single shake before opening it, so the air is at the end away from the nozzle. Then there's no splattering.

Re: Food Packaging

#113

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

9dev wrote: post #111
LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nopetynope. I don't remember where exactly anymore because I rarely buy beer, but I think it was Lidl where I returned some Tsingtao bottles and heard the machine crushing them, thinking WTF?! Edit: I know this isn't true for every glass bottle, but it happens. There are one way glass bottles in .de Which you still have to return, to get the 8 or 15 cents(don't know exactly) back if you care.

Yeah, there are some intricacies as I said, didn't want to turn this into a long-form essay (because that's what you need to describe anything formalised in Germany). Lidl doesn't participate in the bottle sharing initiative as far as I know for example; differently-shaped, one-way bottles are definitely a thing; and sometimes, there are deposit machines that for some reason don't accept a local brewery, although the…

K, but what I really meant to say was rather why do the bottle return thing at all, if you could have a few standard bottles which last decades, and fill them at the store, supermarket, etc. from kegs, canisters, and return only those, instead of single bottles?

Edit: where the kegs/canisters take the part of standardized liquid containers, as it is common in gastronomy already?

Just need to have a machine which can do the refills from store to longlife bottle quickly and clean at the store.

Editedit: Trying a braindump, from my impressions over the past decades, even long before "Grüner Punkt" and other return systems, just regarding bottles.

In larger supermarkets, and stores specializing in selling bottled stuff, there are always large areas for the returns, inside and outside. All for gathering and storing that stuff, to send it back to whereever and whenever. Sometimes with larger forklifts, stacking pallets/boxes 3 storeys high. (about 9 to 12 pallets, or boxes)

This is the cult of the bottle! Make work!

Re: Food Packaging

#114

Post by spiffytech »

thomasguide wrote: post #83

This is very interesting, but I can’t help but feel that a glass bottle with a metal cap (and one of those Dutch condiment spatulas) would be just fine for all these applications and also be more easily and effectively reused and recycled. I re-use jam jars for food storage, drinking glasses, mini herb gardens, etc. and could incorporate bottles, jars, and other glass containers into a variety of needs around the hou…

I remember when ketchup came in glass bottles and you had to use a knife to get it out. I'm much happier with the squeeze bottle era. I like reusability, but I also like things not being a pain to use.

Re: Food Packaging

#115

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

thomasguide wrote: post #97
KennyBlanken wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sound you heard was me rolling my eyes at the bunch of nonsense they started off with, which seemed sucked straight from the mouth of a plastics industry PR lackey. The squeeze nipple thingy is pretty brilliant, but an ecological disaster.

As a cook I find the squeeze actually sort of frustrating. Sometimes it usefully delivers the right amount of ketchup (or mustard, or whatever) to its destination; mostly it splatters. In any case I still have to use a knife to spread it around. Solving the leaky bottle upside down problem is too narrow a focus.

McDonalds does that with cardridges in a (don't know the exact word) squeeze gun, and it mostly comes out in the same volume. They also had funnels for ketchup and mustard, where you pushed once, and got more or less the same amounts per push.

Re: Food Packaging

#116

Post by nitrogen »

simondotau wrote: post #106
V1ndaar wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate you're being downvoted. Your intuition is spot on. Here's [0] a report from the Danish Environmental Protection Agency about life cycle analysis of different shopping bags. See table 4 on page 18 in the summary. A cotton bag needs to be reused 7,100 times and an organic cotton one even 21,000 times to reach parity in its environmental impact compared to a single use plastic bag that's reused as a tra…

For what it’s worth, I come back to check on my reply after 8 hours to find it has a score of 1. So if there has been any downvotes they have been perfectly balanced out by upvotes. I’m not a fan on indiscriminate use of petroleum products but I really think people underestimate just how thin a single use bag is. Next time you finish a plastic bottle of milk or juice, weigh the container and see how many single use b…

The main problem with single-use bags is that they blow away too easily and end up being seen.

Re: Food Packaging

#118

Post by vestrigi »

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #113
9dev wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there are some intricacies as I said, didn't want to turn this into a long-form essay (because that's what you need to describe anything formalised in Germany). Lidl doesn't participate in the bottle sharing initiative as far as I know for example; differently-shaped, one-way bottles are definitely a thing; and sometimes, there are deposit machines that for some reason don't accept a local brewery, although the…

K, but what I really meant to say was rather why do the bottle return thing at all, if you could have a few standard bottles which last decades, and fill them at the store, supermarket, etc. from kegs, canisters, and return only those, instead of single bottles? Edit: where the kegs/canisters take the part of standardized liquid containers, as it is common in gastronomy already? Just need to have a machine which can…

So you mean local bottling at each store with standard bottles? I like the idea, but the challenges are quite tough. - No branding/consumer information possible on the bottle - carbonized beverages can‘t just be poured in free air like juice or milk, a large facility is needed - beverage stores would have to pump dozens of different beverages through one machine, that would always mix a little bit of the last filling - that facility must follow strict hygiene requirements which makes it expensive

Re: Food Packaging

#119

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

vestrigi wrote: post #118
LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

K, but what I really meant to say was rather why do the bottle return thing at all, if you could have a few standard bottles which last decades, and fill them at the store, supermarket, etc. from kegs, canisters, and return only those, instead of single bottles? Edit: where the kegs/canisters take the part of standardized liquid containers, as it is common in gastronomy already? Just need to have a machine which can…

So you mean local bottling at each store with standard bottles? I like the idea, but the challenges are quite tough. - No branding/consumer information possible on the bottle - carbonized beverages can‘t just be poured in free air like juice or milk, a large facility is needed - beverage stores would have to pump dozens of different beverages through one machine, that would always mix a little bit of the last filling…

Let's ignore the machines for a while(waves hands...). I think that is possible. Think of the the ones giving all sorts of coffee in a cup, but also soups, like in some companies canteens.

I've thought about the carbonizing thing. Let's say there are glass cylinders of common sizes and proportions, made out of light, and nearly indestructible laboratory glassware. Everybody has a few of them, like knife, fork and spoon, kitchenware, and so on. Why not have the cylinder open on the top, with a screw thread?

Several sorts of caps precisely fitting onto that thread, sealed when latched on? Then there could be a module like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd-neck_bottle for anything sparkling as the 'cap' being screwed and latched onto that cylinder. As one of many options. Think bottle lego! :-)

As for the branding, consumer information? Some sort of e-paper, or some RFID with a little bit of storage would surely do? (Also modular, so you can either change it, without throwing away the base bottle in case of defect, or vice versa. Because shit always happens)

Edit: Thinking further about it, It vaguely seems this could also be applied to most stuff which ships in tin cans. Like soups, Ravioli, and so on.

Editedit: Regarding the large facility...These already exist for baking pre-baked stuff, so you have the illusion of freshness.

It could also save a massive amount of store space because there could be one area with all sorts of filling stations, with the canisters plugged in behind the scenes. Instead of having rows of rows of stacked bottles or tin cans which need to be restocked continuosly.

Regarding deliveries, could be similar. All the "ghost kitchens' having such systems, filling those common containers with their common caps, from a common pool.

The small modular bottles for consumers just shuttling back and forth locally/regionally in that pool, while the larger ones only making it back and forth between delivery hubs and producers. No matter if Supermarket or delivery from some 'ghost kitchen'.

Phew! I'll leave it at that :-)

Editeditedit: Err, nope! Can't stop! Cold Plasma like in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonthermal_plasma for disinfection! (Maybe)

Re: Food Packaging

#120

Post by _Microft »

ggm wrote: post #5

There's a book from 25+ years ago on the design of cardboard boxes which goes to similar levels of obsessive detail. Part Art college, design school, industrial design and part coffee table book. Cardboard, it's origami for industry: sheet form, now optimise assembly, cost and structural integrity alongside ease of production...

Here are some names of package design books that I came across recently:

"The Package Design Book", "Structural Package Design" and "Complex Packaging" via https://mobile.twitter.com/robin7331/status/1484442902050881...

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