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Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

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Re: Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

#111
post #36

Vacuum travel in a a tube does actually make sense. It may not be viable (yet?) but the idea is sound. A big problem is a breach in your vacuum. Keeping the atmosphere out is expensive. But what if where you’re building it has no atmosphere and is geologically stable or dead? Then a lot of problems go away. You don’t even need a tunnel necessarily. Yet another reason why colonizing the Moon makes 1000x more sense tha…

> Vacuum travel in a a tube does actually make sense. It may not be viable (yet?) but the idea is sound.

I'm not sure the idea will be viable, ever. Too many problems, not enough rewards.

For example, the problem of a vacuum tube developing a leak. The leak would start an implosion, which then propagates down both directions of the tube at mach-1 speed of sound. The implosion would resemble the continuous crushing of a soda can down the entire length of tube. The outside pressure at sea level compared to the inside (lack of) pressure is too great to be safe for passengers or cargo.

The above problem could in theory be solved using air locks spaced apart to have a chance to mitigate the destruction to a few kilometres where the leak happened. But the idea is not very feasible, the air-locked segments would be several kilometres long, enough to slow a transport capsule to a safe halt, yet long enough to get ahead of the mach-1 speed of implosion. High speed sensor networks would have to cover the the hyper-loop ad infinium.

And don't get me started on material science, in particular thermal expansion of steel. The only way to deal with thermal expansion is by using expansion joins. The problem with expansion joints, see the above part about leaks. The entire track of (above ground) tubing would have to deal with significant expansion/contraction. Like for Dallas Austin the expansion would be well in excess of ~100's of ft.

Then comes the energy requirements to pull and maintain a hard vacuum in very long & wide tubes. The closest thing that comes to mind is the Large Hadron Collider, but that pulls a vacuum by cooling the narrow tube down to cryogenic temps... it's not the same. Hyper-loop would require HUGE amounts of energy to maintain the vacuum. It would be more energy put in than profit that comes out, unless of course the hyperloop is transporting some kind of high value merchandise like kilos of cocaine or whatever. The economics simply isn't there, the engineering isn't there, it's pretty much a terrible idea.

The only good argument for the Hyperloop is a logical fallacy, called "argument from authority". Put another way, the argument goes: since Elon Musk is so amazing, we can suspend our disbelief and trust the idea on the sole basis of whatever perceived accolades (the authority) Elon Musk has gained by being a billionaire entrepreneur. Sure, Elon's a cool dude, very smart, tenacious, etc... but that doesn't stop hyperloop from being a terrible idea.

Re: Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

#112
post #86

China: Builds 40,000 miles of high speed rail in 12 years https://twitter.com/xiaoyewen/status/1494588071483875333 United States: Thinks about vacuum tubes for awhile, gives up entirely.

China took on lots of debt to do that, and it will take a while to pay it off if ever (we can argue whether SOE debt is government debt or not). It might make for some interesting development opportunities in the future, but only an authoritarian government could divert so many resources. I’m much more excited by Japan’s new maglev that will go from Tokyo to Nagoya by 2026 or 2028. Hyper loop had a lot of potential t…

The USA is more in debt than China, it's just been badly spent.

Re: Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

#113
post #86

China: Builds 40,000 miles of high speed rail in 12 years https://twitter.com/xiaoyewen/status/1494588071483875333 United States: Thinks about vacuum tubes for awhile, gives up entirely.

Also somehow its easier to build self-driving cars than it is to invest in public transportation.

Re: Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China took on lots of debt to do that, and it will take a while to pay it off if ever (we can argue whether SOE debt is government debt or not). It might make for some interesting development opportunities in the future, but only an authoritarian government could divert so many resources. I’m much more excited by Japan’s new maglev that will go from Tokyo to Nagoya by 2026 or 2028. Hyper loop had a lot of potential t…

The USA is more in debt than China, it's just been badly spent.

Only if you don’t count SOE debt as government debt. It gets weird when so many companies are owned by the state. That SOE debt also includes all the debt used to build china’s HSR system.

Re: Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

#115
post #99

Hyperloop’s lack of scalability makes it even less suitable for transporting cargo than passenger travel.

Define the scalability that you speak of. Obviously there is no hyperloop system yet so we can't speak about real life stats but the idea of hyperloop is a pod that goes really fast because of the vacuum. Change "pod" to "shipping container". So if you can send one shipping container after another at, say, 400 mph, what exactly would be scalability problem. It would clearly be faster that rail and therefore having a…

Most consumer goods and the containers themselves are not designed to withstand vacuum, so you cannot have the containers themselves take the role of the pods. They would have to be loaded/unloaded inside the pods. The airlocks at the terminals would also need to be cycled adding to the processing time and making the system less scalable.

The entire system is designed for sending containers one by one in pods, so its throughput is not at all impressive compared to the trains with several tens of railcars.

Not to mention the technical difficulties of reliably maintaining vacuum in hundreds of kilometers of the tunnel. And don’t forget that a single broken seal anywhere on the whole track would bring the whole system to a halt, and would require significant safety intervals between the poss.

As for the speed - the hyperloop’s main advantage - there is relatively little cargo in the world for which shipping time makes a critical difference between 100 km/h train and 2000 km/h hypothetical hyperloop. Reliability, throughout and an established network are much more important, hence why the bulk of world’s shipping is done slowly and reliably by sea.

Re: Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

#116
post #79
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really helpful. It can go slightly faster, but wind resistance is a problem you can't get around.

You can plasma sheaf the train head. The stability of wheels/rails and other mechanical stuff at say 700km/hour is probably a bigger issue than air resistance.

Nobody has tested maglev at 700km/h. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_speed_record The conventional train speed record is only 30km/h slower than maglev. The issue with the conventional train wasn't wheels it was the overhead wire contact (though at that speed maglev is more efficient)

Re: Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 miles of maglev track from the shanghai airport to the city cost 1.2 billion dollars for China to build, god knows how much it would cost Americans (NYC spent about a billion per mile on the last expansion to the subway, and that's hundred year old tech)

Japan is building a maglev between Tokyo and Osaka. The Nagoya stretch will be done this decade. The Shanghai maglev is kind of a pink elephant, it doesn’t even go to downtown Shanghai. I took it once for the novelty l, but a cab is much better time wise and about the same price.

I was really looking forward to taking it since I read about maglev in Popular Mechanics as a kid, but my flight was 6am and the train didn't start running til 6:30! cab ride it is...

Re: Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

#118
post #69
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd prefer Amtrak over aircraft for lots and lots of my travel, if not for this. Hell, I'd probably travel more total, too. Even if the price were the same as flying for a given destination. The huge trip-duration and arrival-time uncertainty due to the shared rail, and having to defer to cargo trains, is what sinks it, for me. They can vary by large double digit percentages of the nominal time, at which point they'r…

Yeah it was amazing living in France where rail is often faster, and sometimes much faster than driving. And often quicker than air travel when going from city centre to city centre.

Sure, now try shipping freight in France...

Re: Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

#119
post #91
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vastly higher speeds is the reason it would be valuable if it can be made economically feasible.

Does freight need to go that quickly? Quicker than a normal high speed train? Is there enough value in the freight going faster to fund the infrastructure?

Some freight yes, some freight yes, probably not. Fruit and mail needs to go very fast and is often shipped by airplane. There are a few cases where regular shipping doesn't deliver on time and so an emergency order is air freighted in - at great expense.

I doubt that they can get their costs lower than airplanes. They need to buy land all the way from point A to point B, vs only at airports. Airplanes also run at a partial vacuum (30000 feet) by nature. As such it is hard to see anyone using them instead of something else. Where speed counts airplanes are faster, where speed doesn't count ships and slow trains in air are a cheaper.

Re: Hyperloop lays off half of its employees as it pivots away from passenger travel

#120
post #36

Vacuum travel in a a tube does actually make sense. It may not be viable (yet?) but the idea is sound. A big problem is a breach in your vacuum. Keeping the atmosphere out is expensive. But what if where you’re building it has no atmosphere and is geologically stable or dead? Then a lot of problems go away. You don’t even need a tunnel necessarily. Yet another reason why colonizing the Moon makes 1000x more sense tha…

> Vacuum travel in a a tube does actually make sense. It may not be viable (yet?) but the idea is sound. I'm not sure the idea will be viable, ever. Too many problems, not enough rewards. For example, the problem of a vacuum tube developing a leak. The leak would start an implosion, which then propagates down both directions of the tube at mach-1 speed of sound. The implosion would resemble the continuous crushing of…

> The leak would start an implosion

Depends on the materials, but most materials have very different characteristics and won't implode. Leaks are seen in modern vacuum systems all the time, and implosions are rare. I've personally caused a leak in a vacuum system when I disconnected the vacuum hose from the pump - air rushed into the hose and no implosion!

> in particular thermal expansion of steel. The only way to deal with thermal expansion is by using expansion joins

After some thought (I've been thinking about them for a while), there are two solutions: first go far underground where the temperature is stable year round. Put the tube inside something that you do careful HVAC in to ensure there is no temperature changes. Both make the whole system even more insanely expensive than what it already is. I have zero confidence in expansion joints unless we replace them yearly which means the whole is even more insanely expensive.

Throw enough money at it and I think engineers can solve the engineering problems. However nothing changes the fact that it is insanely expensive no matter how you look at it.

The real problem isn't engineering though, the real problem is political: you can't get enough money to build the thing, and if you even try you will discover that nobody will let you build it in their backyard.

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