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Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

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Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#111

Post by rapsey »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #82
rapsey wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propaganda from the same people who are thirsty for it. The insane media drum beats are exactly like before Afghanistan and Iraq. It is so depressing how absolutely nothing has changed.

The US is not going to fight a war over Ukraine and has ordered all its troops to leave Ukraine. Russia will invade Ukraine and leave it broken for even suggesting that it could join NATO and then leave. The US is only sending troops into Eastern Europe in case Russia stays and feels like causing trouble in bordering NATO countries where the US has Article 5 obligations.

The US military industrial complex is left wanting, Biden has sinking approval ratings and nordstream 2 is about to be turned on. All signs point to needing to start a conflict by the US.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#112

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

VictorPath wrote: post #101
jcranmer wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia also signed a treaty that said it agreed that Crimea was part of Ukraine, not Russia. It tore that treaty up and invaded Crimea because Ukraine was thinking about not extending Russia's lease on Sevastopol.

The US secretary of state, James Baker, promised Russia that NATO would not expand eastward if Russia withdrew its military from the Warsaw Pact countries. This sounds like a broken promise to me.

I think that's fair, but it's not like the former communist countries were forced at gunpoint to join NATO.

Russia may not like it (and I'd imagine I wouldn't were I in the same position) but invading countries because of their own sovereign decisions is unlikely to be successful in the long-term.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#113

Post by dragonwriter »

VictorPath wrote: post #35
unclebucknasty wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia annexed Crimea and has been engaged in a proxy war in Donbas for 8 years. The Kremlin has now amassed 100K - 200K troops at Ukraine's border. Yet, the Russian propaganda machine continues to claim it's the West that wants war. Can you explain how the West is the aggressor here?

> Russia annexed Crimea The Russian military was in the Crimea back when redcoats were stationed in New York City, and has been in the Crimea ever since.

> The Russian military was in the Crimea back when redcoats were stationed in New York City, and has been in the Crimea ever since.

No, it hasn't.

From the creation of Soviet Ukraine in 1919 through 2014, Russia neither controlled nor pretended to control Crimea (except for a 9 year period from 1945-1954), which it acknowledged was its own entity (prior to 1945) or part of Ukraine (after 1954).

(People sometimes equate the USSR, which essentially replaced the Russian Empire with “Russia”, but the modern Russian Federation is a direct linear continuation of the entity that was known as the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic, not the USSR, just as Ukraine is a direct linear continuation of the entity that was known as the Ukraine Soviet Socialist Republic.)

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#114

Post by throwaway6734 »

oceanplexian wrote: post #70
throwaway6734 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Russia isn't the one starting this conflict >Russia made it very clear, that ain't happening and they'll go to war over it. Which one is it? >The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propaganda from the same people who are thirsty for it. The massive troop build up along Ukraine's border and in Belarus? You're spreading Russian propaganda.

The problem is that Russia isn’t the only country that puts out propaganda, and most people are now well aware after the lies that were used to justify the Iraq war. So far I haven’t seen any objective facts except some out of context satellite photos and anonymously sources information from the US intelligence community (A group of people who’s job descriptions are to spread misinformation)

Do you think troops have been moved to Ukraine's border in Belarus and in Russia?

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#115

Post by irthomasthomas »

throw0101a wrote: post #13

See also Anne Applebaum: > Putin is preparing to invade Ukraine again—or pretending he will invade Ukraine again—for the same reason. He wants to destabilize Ukraine, frighten Ukraine. He wants Ukrainian democracy to fail. He wants the Ukrainian economy to collapse. He wants foreign investors to flee. He wants his neighbors—in Belarus, Kazakhstan, even Poland and Hungary—to doubt whether democracy will ever be viable…

Russia has been holding the same military drills for over a decade without triggering this panic. [0]

Also, calling Ukraine a democracy is a bit of a stretch. They shut down 3 tv stations critical of the government, and imprisoned a political rival. I am sure there are people here that would love to shutdown RT, but we don't do that in a democracy.

[0] 2020: Russian Military Exercises Near Ukraine. 100 to 120 thousand troops. No WW3, no threat of nukes. https://empr.media/news/conflict-zone/russian-military-exerc...

earlier:

2016 https://www.vox.com/2016/9/1/12729426/russia-troops-ukraine-...

2017 https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2017/09/13/whats-putin-up...

2018 https://archive.is/0gqL0

2019 https://radiolemberg.com/en/ua-articles/ua-allarticles/almos...

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#116

Post by sudosysgen »

throw0101a wrote: post #45
iqanq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NATO, which shouldn't be expanding eastwards, wants missiles in Ukraine pointing at Putin's face.

Why shouldn't it be expanding eastwards? Seems to me that if a bunch of countries want to get together to protect each other, they have every right to do so. Especially when a near-by country has a habit of being an aggressor: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexatio…

If NATO was nothing but a self defense pact, I'd tend to agree, but then if that was the case no one in NATO would want to expand too much.

NATO is not just a self defence organisation. It's an offensive tool. NATO has gone into more offensive missions (at least 3) than truly defensive missions (literally zero - I don't count the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan as a defensive act).

For many members of NATO, the only existing military threat is within NATO itself (see: Turkey and some of its neighbors).

The truth is, NATO expanding is a great way for the West to force it's enemies to increase their defense spending and to lower the cost of offensive military interventions.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#118

Post by Koshkin »

BobbyJo wrote: post #19
gfosco wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're too cynical, but we can have our own takes. From what I was able to piece together, Russia isn't the one starting this conflict, in action. It's NATO aligned countries trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. Russia made it very clear, that ain't happening and they'll go to war over it. So who's still agitating for war? The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propa…

I mean, that's still Russia being the aggressor. Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, can align with who they wish, and be lobbied by anyone and everyone to do so, and Russia doesn't get a say in that.

> can align with who they wish

Historically, this has never been true. Countless wars were started when the balance of power was threatened, even by such a small thing as marriage (can’t they marry “who they wish”?)

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#119

Post by throwaway4good »

purple_ferret wrote: post #77
throwaway4good wrote: post #66

For some alternative perspective - here is an analysis from Chinese government outlet Global Times: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202202/1252149.shtml US needs Ukraine crisis to harm European economy, and legitimize its military presence ... Chinese analysts said Sunday that keeping the crisis intense will benefit the US in several fields: legitimizing its military presence in Europe by demonizing Russia and poison…

Absolutely true. Similarly, US needs China to invade Taiwan and take over the whole South China Sea to justify their presence in the Far East. And who are the CCP to deny such an ambition?

Yeah. Drum the war drums and watch Taiwan's key industry flee to safe habour in the US.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#120

Post by oceanplexian »

AutumnCurtain wrote: post #96
oceanplexian wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean part of it could be that lots of us have actually been to Russia (I fit in that category) or are Russian. We don’t need to rely on third party sources to tell us how to think. I’ve also been to China and it’s so much worse but the US propaganda machine loves China, in fact we’re watching them trivialize a country that places minorities in concentration camps on primetime TV. Doesn’t seem odd to me at all. The…

That would explain cogent arguments based on the real world. Does it explain blatantly false ones that align with Russian propaganda?

What about the American propaganda that the government doesn’t spy on its citizens, because if it weren’t for Russia the person who brought that to light would be sitting in a jail cell instead of taking interviews.
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