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The Day AppGet Died (2020)

keivan.io

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Re: The Day AppGet Died (2020)

#111

Post by jmcgough »

axiomdata316 wrote: post #57

It's kind of sad but it looks like Kevin hasn't posted anything since this. I hope this experience didn't break him.

from https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/2/21277863/microsoft-winget-...:

"We reached out to Beigi to comment on the blog post and Microsoft’s overall response, but the developer says he’s still in discussions with Microsoft over the issue."

That seems like it happened unrelated to giving him additional credit. I wonder if they offered him something to sign a non-disparagement agreement.

Re: The Day AppGet Died (2020)

#112

Post by jmcgough »

908B64B197 wrote: post #109

This story gets reposted on HN quite often, and makes it to the front page. Several things don't add up in it. The author claims that code was copied but I looked at both repos and they share no code at all. [0] [1] In his article, the author claims that " If I were the patenting type, this would be the thing you would patent. ps. I don't regret not patenting anything." That's really not how patents work, and looking…

He never claims that his code was copied - just that they used the same approach and a lot of similar patterns.

Regardless of what happened, it sounds like they left him hanging without even the courtesy of a follow-up email. Going from being ghosted to having MS release their own version of your OSS project after they've asked you a lot of technical details about how it works would leave a sour taste in anyone's mouth.

Most people don't get acquihired, so I don't blame him for not understanding how it works (nor is he from the states). What he's really talking about is being hired to keep working on AppGet, he's not talking about having the project itself acquired (since it's an OSS license).

I doubt there was intentional malice here but they really screwed up in how they communicated with him, and that can't help encourage devs to work on the windows ecosystem.

Re: The Day AppGet Died (2020)

#113

Post by 908B64B197 »

jmcgough wrote: post #112
908B64B197 wrote: post #109

This story gets reposted on HN quite often, and makes it to the front page. Several things don't add up in it. The author claims that code was copied but I looked at both repos and they share no code at all. [0] [1] In his article, the author claims that " If I were the patenting type, this would be the thing you would patent. ps. I don't regret not patenting anything." That's really not how patents work, and looking…

He never claims that his code was copied - just that they used the same approach and a lot of similar patterns. Regardless of what happened, it sounds like they left him hanging without even the courtesy of a follow-up email. Going from being ghosted to having MS release their own version of your OSS project after they've asked you a lot of technical details about how it works would leave a sour taste in anyone's mou…

> Going from being ghosted to having MS release their own version of your OSS project after they've asked you a lot of technical details about how it works would leave a sour taste in anyone's mouth.

I don't think they asked him a lot. The code was all there, and WinGet doesn't share anything with it.

To me, it sounds like he failed his PM interview. That's why they stopped talking to him.

Re: The Day AppGet Died (2020)

#114

Post by stickfigure »

tomrod wrote: post #49
stickfigure wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this complaint. You want separate logins for every service? You can't even argue that there are privacy issues - these are now all part of the same company. Separate logins incur a cost to both the service operator (who has to run multiple secure identity systems, build multiple 2FA systems, manage multiple customer service teams, etc) and the client (who has to remember multiple passwords). Consol…

> You want separate logins for every service? In short: yes. In long: I want separate logins for different domains. In no universe should Minecraft share a login service with Azure cloud engineering. And I shouldn't have to log in to use offline applications locally. And teams should support different logins for many accounts, like Slack figured out ages ago. By forcing changes to the login pattern for negligible to…

You can create as many Microsoft logins as you like. If you want to separate Minecraft and Azure, go ahead. But there's no reason this requires separate authentication technology or infrastructure.

Re: The Day AppGet Died (2020)

#115

Post by fartcannon »

Hakashiro wrote: post #110
fartcannon wrote: post #51

This is why you use, at the very least, a version of the GPL. But he used Apache. So he basically did Microsofts job for them for free.

Like someone else mentioned, this is not a source code issue. I think 90% of the people who got pissed back then thought Microsoft stole the code: get this, they didn't steal anything. One is C++ and the other is C# so it is literally impossible for a license to matter here. This would have been solved only with software patents. But I can very easily guess you're against software patents, aren't you? Or only when th…

No post body was provided.

Re: The Day AppGet Died (2020)

#116

Post by ijidak »

I'd recommend retaining a lawyer as soon as a large company like Microsoft reaches out to you. (Even if it's just for your private education of risks, rights and strategy.)

Alternatively, start billing for time and travel immediately.

If they don't want to pay, tell them to meet you locally. (Let them incur travel expenses.)

This will force the company to demonstrate their intent.

If they balk at both requests, this shows that:

1. They don't have managerial approval for their escapade.

Or...

2. They intend to take advantage of you to the extent that they can.

Either way, it shows they need to get their ducks in a row. And prepare themselves to treat your time as valuable.

Re: The Day AppGet Died (2020)

#117

Post by CRConrad »

Shared404 wrote: post #85
CRConrad wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again most five-year-olds seem smarter than most college students.

I dunno. They're both larval stages, just different ones. As far as knowing about the workings of a company, I'd definitely bet on the college student. The observation in my other comment applies to general adults as well. Ok I'll stop taking the joke too seriously now :P .

College students have spent much longer being indoctrinated that corporations are good, and the bigger the better, than have five-year-olds. In that sense the joke actually was -- at least to some small part -- serious.

Re: The Day AppGet Died (2020)

#118

Post by [deleted] »

908B64B197 wrote: post #107
chasil wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GPLv3 might be enough to do that, for some. It was sufficient concern for Apple, who dumped Samba, bash, and gcc. Microsoft's CBL/Mariner distribution of Linux would be the first place to look for GPLv3, and and impacts upon their patent portfolio (I haven't read up on the patent provisions). "Apple, a user of GCC and a heavy user of both DRM and patents, switched the compiler in its Xcode IDE from GCC to Clang,…

LLVM is also more modular. The front-end and back-ends are well decoupled and it’s possible to work on them separately. Useful for a company that has to target two CPU architectures.

[deleted]

Re: The Day AppGet Died (2020)

#119

Post by indymike »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #28

I dunno, getting inspired and copying all the ideas, deciding that they can do a good enough job internally instead of hiring Keivan doesn’t sound like a bad thing in and of itself. It’s the stringing along that makes my blood boil. After reading things like this, I’m thinking, what I’d do differently? Maybe have them reimburse all my travel upfront. No money, no meetings. Also, bill all the meetings and conversation…

>I dunno, getting inspired and copying all the ideas, deciding that they can do a good enough job internally instead of hiring Keivan doesn’t sound like a bad thing in and of itself.

This is one of these things where you have to go, what did they loose by not investing in or hiring Keivan? Would the product be better, would it have got more traction, etc. Here's a juxtaposition: MS bought Github (yes, bigger scale) and chose not to build their own. The result was really good for MS, and honestly, not bad for Github users. MS needs to get better (and they are getting better) at using investment and acquisition instead of brainfscking and re-innovating. To be fair, maybe there's more to the story?

Re: The Day AppGet Died (2020)

#120

Post by 908B64B197 »

gdcbe wrote: post #101
LeonB wrote: post #98

This caused a big splash at the time. Here’s some links on ‘what happened next’ (though I’d love to know what else has happened since!) - “Microsoft finally gives AppGet developer the credit he deserves” ( https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/6/2/21277863/micr... ) Microsoft response: - “winget install learning” by “Andrew” at Microsoft ( https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/winget-install-le... )

I find it a bit shallow that they throw around these words so easily. The apologies would have a bit more worth IMHO if they actually would compensate him financially for the foundational work. Sure it’s not a legal requirement but I do believe it is the right thing to do and it’s not like they would feel it…

There wasn't anything foundational.

The author himself said he wanted to replicate the package managers available on Linux.

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