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15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

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Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#111

Post by zihotki »

hughrr wrote: post #88
sterlind wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm suffering through learning to code again without much use of my hands. I would very much like Neuralink to be a thing.

But are you comfortable torturing other entities for your personal gain? That’s pretty much what this comes down to.

It's not the personal gain. The results of the experiment can be used not only for humans but for animals as well. Refrasing your comment, are you comfortable torturing many humans and animals (alive and not yet born) in order to save several tens of monkeys?

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#112

Post by IIAOPSW »

DarknessFalls wrote: post #69
IIAOPSW wrote: post #18

The article felt a bit flat. Surely there's no such thing as "oops, monkey died, let me just grab the next one off the shelf". There's no real reporting into the why or how, just uncritical repeating of the complaint that the neuralink research is dangerous / unethical. The reporting is so flimsy that one starts to look at the page and ask "wait, what site am I on anyway?" Hmm, I wonder what sort of bias a site calle…

Regardless of where the news was reported in the original post, the only thing of importance is whether or not it's true. Did you check some of the original sources? https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/extreme-suffering-15-23-... https://nypost.com/2022/02/10/elon-musks-neuralink-allegedly... This is worth looking into. First, it's using Tesla drivers as guinea pigs for automation. Then some strange experiments with…

Neither of those are "the original source." Those are reports on what an animal rights group claims they have evidence of. The original source would be if you linked me to the "700 pages of evidence" which is supposedly going to be submitted to the Dept. of Agriculture.

I don't know the procedural rules around this sort of proceeding, but it strikes me as odd that they go to the press before submitting the paperwork. If they went after submitting the paper work, then you'd presumably be able to look up the 700 pages as a matter of public record and then I'd have egg on my face for not actually having looked into things. But as it stands, my face is firmly without egg.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#113

Post by zihotki »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #13
sjaak wrote: post #3

One must break eggs in order to make an omelet.

All good and dandy until the egg is you or someone you love. To put ourselves in the shoes of the monkeys that died a pointless death for who knows what (a chip that will allow broadcasting ads directly into the brain?) is a thing that we call "empathy". Try having some one day.

I wonder why is it pointless?

As for the empathy, this is a classic trolley problem - on one hand you have a pack of monkeys, on the other you have many people and pets (and may be even animals) with certain conditions which could be (potentially) fixed by neuralink. On which side will you guide a trolley, where will you apply your empathy?

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#114

Post by hughrr »

zihotki wrote: post #111
hughrr wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But are you comfortable torturing other entities for your personal gain? That’s pretty much what this comes down to.

It's not the personal gain. The results of the experiment can be used not only for humans but for animals as well. Refrasing your comment, are you comfortable torturing many humans and animals (alive and not yet born) in order to save several tens of monkeys?

They wouldn't be used for animals because there is no return of investment on that.

Ethics don't by nature stop suffering of the many. What they do is protect the few from being defined as arbitrarily less valuable than the many and thus being exploited. I think there are plenty of history lessons around that one which are worth reflecting on.

Edit: to be clear, both our perspectives are valid. But one does not allow arbitrary escalation of harm to others.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#115

Post by diffeomorphism »

kkoncevicius wrote: post #72

A fitting quote: "The error in depicting critics of animal experiments as anti-science becomes clear when one begins to question the extent to which the purported scientific aims of these experiments are actually accomplished. For then it turns out that the experiments and not their critics are unscientific. Those experiments that cannot be justified on scientific grounds can be no more justified than the frivolous k…

That quote is either really stupid or downright evil.

> Those experiments that cannot be justified on scientific grounds

Duh. Those experiments are also already illegal. So that quote either thinks that scienists are comic book villains that want to torture for fun (really stupid) or they want you to think that (evil).

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#116

Post by donkarma »

throwaway_4ever wrote: post #58

Trolley problem. I wish most Neuralink detractors would even attempt to understand the problem scope, trade-off, and everything that's at stake here in our lifetimes. "Elon Musk wants more $" is such a brain-dead take. The reasoning behind Neuralink is explained here: https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html#part4 TL;DR Some of the smartest people in the world consider AGI an existential threat and Neuralink is…

i am of the position that AGI is impossible or if it is even possible won't be done for centuries to come

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#118

Post by pvaldes »

baybal2 wrote: post #75
DarknessFalls wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of where the news was reported in the original post, the only thing of importance is whether or not it's true. Did you check some of the original sources? https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/extreme-suffering-15-23-... https://nypost.com/2022/02/10/elon-musks-neuralink-allegedly... This is worth looking into. First, it's using Tesla drivers as guinea pigs for automation. Then some strange experiments with…

You know that Musk Elon has a mental condition?

He didn't killed the monkeys by his own hands, so... how is this relevant to this discussion?

Well, In fact the only source of this news, is less than impartial and has an agenda to fill for profit, so... maybe we should hear the other part also first (instead to assume things by default).

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#119

Post by iqanq »

austinjp wrote: post #79
jsnodlin wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes everyone is aware of what happens if you completely do away with ethics in science. Moderation is key here, the pendulum has swung too far to the other extreme from your example.

Yikes. Nope. The more we learn about other species, the more we realise that they are thinking and emotional creatures. I would no more want to see these experiments done on a human than on a chimp. Do the ends justify the means? That's ethically extremely dubious, to say the least. Why conduct brain surgery on primates for neuralink ? Where are we going with this, exactly? As for comparing neuralink brain surgery to…

>Do the ends justify the means?

Yes.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#120

Post by [deleted] »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #115
kkoncevicius wrote: post #72

A fitting quote: "The error in depicting critics of animal experiments as anti-science becomes clear when one begins to question the extent to which the purported scientific aims of these experiments are actually accomplished. For then it turns out that the experiments and not their critics are unscientific. Those experiments that cannot be justified on scientific grounds can be no more justified than the frivolous k…

That quote is either really stupid or downright evil. > Those experiments that cannot be justified on scientific grounds Duh. Those experiments are also already illegal. So that quote either thinks that scienists are comic book villains that want to torture for fun (really stupid) or they want you to think that (evil).

[deleted]
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