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Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

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Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#111

Post by pbronez »

conz wrote: post #2

Recommend you look at something like the Raspberry Pi 400: https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400-unit/ These are about USD100 a pop and need a HDMI screen and you're all set. And then configure it to run a Basic or Python REPL on boot, to give that 1970s home PC feel.

I bought one of these for my kid. He’s not quite old enough for it yet. Key challenge: what software do I put on it?

My main ideas are:

(1) touch typing instruction game

(2) some way to interact with a very controlled group of people… maybe a mastodon or matrix server I run in the homelab and limit to our immediate friends.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#112

Post by snowwrestler »

Take any decent computer and point the browser at scratch.mit.edu. It’s got fun, easy ways for kids to learn programming concepts.

And more importantly (to the kids), it’s got tons of fun content that other kids have made using those tools. This helps spread ideas and inspiration. They can see something cool and then “look inside it” to see how it was built.

Kids want to be doing what other kids today are doing. Hearing “I loved this as a kid” from a parent can doom something right from the start. Kids want their own experiences, especially as they get older. The technologies you have fond memories of were contemporary at the time you enjoyed them. Your kids also want contemporary experiences.

But most importantly, kids are unique, and often different from their parents. They might not like the same things we did as kids, even if we could exactly recreate them.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#113

Post by lolinder »

bigiain wrote: post #5

I think the problem here is that the world has moved on a lot since some of us kids were amazed at what we could make machines like an AppleII do with basic (and assembler and peek and poke). I remember being amazingly proud of myself for getting an ascii version of Space Invaders working. I could, as a 10 or 12 year old, make something for myself that kinda looked like and was way more fun (for me) to play that _lit…

> I could, as a 10 or 12 year old, make something for myself that kinda looked like and was way more fun (for me) to play that _literally_ the most desirable and sophisticated "computer game" there was at the time.

I think this explanation makes a lot of sense. I was that age a few years later and learned to program by building Flash games when they were at their peak.

It makes me wonder if there's a way to approximate that experience today, even with how far we've come. It doesn't need to be as high fidelity as Fortnite (most of my peers were far more interested in Call of Duty than Flash), but are there simple game engines that a kid today could get started with and quickly build something that's "cool" even by modern standards? Most I'm familiar with have a huge learning curve compared to a BASIC interpreter or even Flash.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#114

Post by openknot »

snowwrestler wrote: post #112

Take any decent computer and point the browser at scratch.mit.edu. It’s got fun, easy ways for kids to learn programming concepts. And more importantly (to the kids), it’s got tons of fun content that other kids have made using those tools. This helps spread ideas and inspiration. They can see something cool and then “look inside it” to see how it was built. Kids want to be doing what other kids today are doing. Hear…

To add to the value of Scratch: it's taught at the start of Harvard's CS50 course for introductory programming. It's a drag-and-drop block-based code editor, which is good for learning about if statements and loops while getting an immediate result. (e.g. the instructions cause an animated character moves in a certain way). The immediate reward can help motivate programming, as it skips the time needed to memorize function names or syntax before understanding what you can do with programming.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#115

Post by joezydeco »

bigiain wrote: post #5

I think the problem here is that the world has moved on a lot since some of us kids were amazed at what we could make machines like an AppleII do with basic (and assembler and peek and poke). I remember being amazingly proud of myself for getting an ascii version of Space Invaders working. I could, as a 10 or 12 year old, make something for myself that kinda looked like and was way more fun (for me) to play that _lit…

Putting the Roblox controversies aside, I see kids creating entire multiplayer systems in this environment. Putting together 3D polygon models and animating them with Lua scripting.

And then on top of all of that they organize themselves into systems. My son belongs to a virtual "airline" that has an org chart, schedules "flights", and has dozens of players that run the show on a daily basis. And, like any other org, you get management disputes and daily problems. I see them better trained for what comes next than we are here, sitting around and talking about it.

So yeah, why would you draw circles with LOGO or blink LEDs when you can literally do all of this from an already-running desktop environment?

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#116

Post by warrenm »

I love all these "back in my day.." and "how do I replicate my [very limited, and - no doubt - wildly incorrect memory of] childhood for my kids" type posts

Because they all-too-often display a vicarious hubris that some how some way my [limited] memory of childhood is the Only True Way™ to experience childhood, and must be replicated for every successive generation

Nostalgia is great - but I do not want to force my kids to go through the stages I had to to get to where I am now

I want them "standing on the shoulders of giants" to be able to do the next Great Thing™

Or for them to decide to do something totally different - because I don't want them following in my career and hobby footsteps because I do it, but because they actually want to do it

Socrates bemoaned this self-same behavior in children ~2400 years ago: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Don't mistake your biased nostalgia as some kind of Thou Shalt Do Thus™ for the next generation

Surely there are positives of how you learned something, but that doesn't mean it is the One True Way™ to learn

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#117

Post by AlanYx »

more_corn wrote: post #13
conz wrote: post #2

Recommend you look at something like the Raspberry Pi 400: https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400-unit/ These are about USD100 a pop and need a HDMI screen and you're all set. And then configure it to run a Basic or Python REPL on boot, to give that 1970s home PC feel.

Second the suggestion of a raspberry pi. The book getting started with raspberry pi was the best introduction to computing I’ve ever seen.

>The book getting started with raspberry pi was the best introduction to computing I’ve ever seen.

I just wanted to second this comment. I was skeptical that the book included with the Raspberry Pi 400 kit would be good or useful, but it is amazing. If anyone remembers the old Usborne introduction to computing/electronics/programming books, it feels a lot like those in some ways. If I was nine years old again and got that book, I'd probably be buried in it for weeks, trying out all the different projects.

The Raspberry Pi foundation also published a book on game development, which is also very much like a lot of the old Usborne books. Really great for kids who are a little older.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#118

Post by openknot »

resonious wrote: post #59
bigiain wrote: post #5

I think the problem here is that the world has moved on a lot since some of us kids were amazed at what we could make machines like an AppleII do with basic (and assembler and peek and poke). I remember being amazingly proud of myself for getting an ascii version of Space Invaders working. I could, as a 10 or 12 year old, make something for myself that kinda looked like and was way more fun (for me) to play that _lit…

I was a lot like your friend's 11-year-old when I was a kid. I loved games, and I loved clicking around to make custom content for games, but I didn't comprehend programming. My mother at one point even installed and booted up Visual Basic for me once and I just didn't get it. It wasn't until I was 16 or 17 before I actually started seriously getting into computing. I guess some kids are "late bloomers" and some just…

16 or 17 still sounds pretty young. In the December 31, 2020 lecture for Harvard's introductory programming course (CS50), the lecturer explains that 2/3 of the class have never programmed before [0] (most enrolled students are 18-19 years old by then, assuming the number excludes non-Harvard undergraduates who are taking the course online).

I started later, and I attribute it to my parents being low-tech, and online discourse framing programming as "really hard" and something you just do to find a steady job (versus make something useful). I bet I would have started a lot sooner if I had different influences growing up, but at least there's still time to learn now.

[0] https://youtu.be/YoXxevp1WRQ?t=208

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#119

Post by city41 »

einr wrote: post #26
karmakaze wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get this same sense. I really want to need an RPi 400 out of nostalgia. My original machine was an Atari 400. It's not much to justify, but I can't think of what I'd actually do with it, other than put it on a shelf like a hipster. I think the closest recreated retro-experience is the Commander X16[0]. The thing I like about it is that it specifically isn't a modern computer. Everything is simple right in the hardw…

At this point I think it is questionable whether the X16 will ever come out. There have been a lot of technical and supply issues, a lot of scope creep and drama in the community and there seems to have been no real significant progress updates in a long time. An alternative that is finished and can be pre-ordered today is the MEGA65: https://mega65.org/ I don't necessarily think a kid would be interested in a glorif…

I have faith in David Murray. He's got a good track record of pushing things through and seeing them to the end.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#120

Post by AlanYx »

It's too bad there's no open source version of something like Print Shop Pro.

I find LibreOffice to be very buggy when trying to design signs and banners (at least on the Raspberry Pi, some features don't work properly with huge fonts, and the option to print a large banner spread across multiple pages doesn't seem to work properly). Inkscape is okay but is a little too advanced for kids and doesn't come with clip art. There's currently no build of Krita for the Raspberry Pi so I haven't been able to try that.

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